Is Health Care a Right?

nurse2002 · May 6, 2003

Originally posted by Gromit
Sounds good. Wish I could afford the Harley Road King, instead of the Kawasaki Vulcan Classic that I ride, but my finances don't support that (yet. They will in about a half a year). I understand the desire, but who should donate the money? I mean, it DOES seem harsh to say 'you just don't have the coverage', but the truth of the matter is, CABG, and any other advanced tx just cost a lot of money, resources etc, and well, who eats the cost? Please don't tell me 'the government'. The government has no money of its own. It gets it through taxes. Most Americans (of the U.S. Variety) are just not willing to donate 1/2 of their earnings like that.

Whats the point in working for a living, if you can't enjoy the living your working for?

As was said earlier, BASIC care is given and refused to none, but you just cannot get Cadillac (or Rolls Royce, for our English friends -love the old Rolls.... back when cars were cars!) care for a Volkswagen price. SOMEBODY has to make up the difference. Who do you force to do that?

Of course, you could always just donate your earnings to help them.... (I already volunteer what few 'free' hours I have left)

Good Queen, are you saying that if you can afford better care, you cannot get it better than or faster than the National Health Service? You must be on the same waiting list as everyone? (I do not pretend to understand NHS in England).

The government DOES have the money. Where is it? Well, if they would get their heads out of their butts, they might find it.

See my previous post please.

Better to be on a waiting list than no list at all.

imo. :)

Gromit · May 6, 2003

I agree, Nurse2002. Think of the BILLIONS we have sent in aid to other countries. If we would curtail some of that, we could have a national health care system that was second to none -without taking one more red cent from us working chumps. I have long advocated the idea of reducing what we just give away to other countries (no way in the world could most or would most pay it back). Helping others is great, but help should also begin at home.

as for waiting lists, what good is it to sit and die by a number? end result is the same. From what I've been reading in the London Mirror, it seems your own citizens have a few gripes about NHS. Point is, none of 'em are perfect. And you didnt answer what I was asking anyway. I'd like to know, in your system of one-size-fits-all (everyone is the same) can the person with extra bread in the pocket get any private care, or are they relegated to the waiting line just the same? England has its share of haves and have-nots too. How do THEY deal with the medical system?

nurse2002 · May 6, 2003

Originally posted by mattsmom81
IMO basic healthcare is a right we ALREADY enjoy in the US. Every community I know of has a county clinic or hospital which works with indigent, and it is against the law for facilities to turf serious ailments due to inability to pay. So the people who need free or low cost basic healthcare already get it, in my experience. If they don't, they aren't looking too hard.

It is not against the law for any facility to turf serious health ailments. At even an "indigent hospital" they only have to 'stabilize' the patient then they send them home. Stabilizing someones pain when it is coming from bone cancer is not helping. Same as a clinic. They stabilize them and send them on their way. With a list of 'community resources.' (might as well dig their grave for them.)

Charity funds run out QUICKLY.

Most of the time if you WORK but cannot afford health insurance you also do NOT qualify for 'government help.' Because no matter how little money you make, it is too much.

jenac · May 7, 2003

Originally posted by nurse2002
Most of the time if you WORK but cannot afford health insurance you also do NOT qualify for 'government help.' Because no matter how little money you make, it is too much. [/b]

That's my point. How many working families can afford to loss $400 a month to heath ins.? Very few can do so- and still eat or pay their bills. And when someone in that family needs heathcare- the costs come straight out of their pockets. Often it puts you in the poorhouse and means other bills won't get paid that month. The end is always the same- feed your kids or pay for insurence. It's no contest.

To many families fall between the cracks of the goverment systems as they are now. The HeathyStart program helps- but it still loses many people. You can either make next to nothing-or work two jobs to pay for it yourself. Medicaid is the same. Medicare- sure, if your 65 or disabled and if you only need what they'll pay for.

Again- I don't have all the answers. I take care of people- not budgets. I'm just showing my frustration with our system as it is.

Good_Queen_Bess · May 7, 2003

The NHS tries to treat people equally. Some NHS trusts will put more investments into different services; ie: In some NHS trusts, waiting lists might be longer, for say; a hip replacement. As an example: In London, you might be waiting longer than Birmingham as in Birmingham there may be more beds/more investment for that particular speciality. It's complicated and I am in the middle of a night shift and can't adequatley explain myself!!! :) I know what I mean, but my brain is running on battery supply back-up!!

Don't believe everything you read in the tabloids! All you hear about are bad things. Many years of underinvestment by Margaret Thatcher and the Tories DID run down the NHS, but things have improved over the last few years.

Yes, you can get treatment quicker paying privatley, but it is not necessarily better. The consultant just seems to kiss your orifice a bit more because he/she's getting his pockets lined. I don't think healthcare should be ran privatley by companies who just put profits first.

Incidentally, what rates of tax are paid in the US? I can't remember ours exactly, but I think the first £6,000 or so is tax-free, then around 24% after that, rising to a higher rate over £30k or so. Don't quote me for exact figures. I would be willing to pay more if it meant better services.

JMP · May 7, 2003

Bess

In many ways England and Canada share the same type of universal health care system. I work with a RN from England and he has confirmed many times that the systems are the same.

It is hard for me to imagine ANYONE needing ANY TYPE of health care and not getting it. So far in my career, if someone needs a CABG, they get it- usually within a week or 10 days.

My family member had a recent problem, was in, had MRI and CAT scan and diagnosed within a week.

Speaking from a critical care point of view ( my area) everyone gets what they need- and many get things they don't need------ but then that is another topic.

VickyRN, MSN, DNP, RN · May 7, 2003

Wow, this thread has gone on and on, debating and restating. I sort of dropped out of the discussion early on, when things got just too "heated." Hopefully, we can all agree CIVILLY to disagree. We all have valid points of view. I think we can all agree on one thing--the system we have now is in need of serious repair. I believe we can also agree that many good, hard-working people through no fault of their own do not have or cannot afford health insurance. It is an entire subclass of American citizens--tens of millions of people. Their economic lives are in constant peril--at any time they can become sick and lose everything and incur thousands of dollars of debt. They are often treated as second-class citizens when they enter health care facilities. Their life expectancies are statistically shorter than their counterparts who have insurance. I really feel for them. I believe that we as a society must do better.

VickyRN, MSN, DNP, RN · May 7, 2003

Oh, and another thing. I think it is a very sad commentary on our society when an incarcerated rapist has better access to health care (FREE health care and health insurance) than a hard-working, law-abiding, tax-paying small business owner who cannot afford to pay exorbitant health insurance premiums.

Just some food for thought....

flashpoint · May 7, 2003

I believe that everyone should have the right to quality health care. I do not, however believe that everyone should have the right to free health care. To be brutally honest, it disgusts me that tax dollars are going to pay for medical care for people who refuse to take care of themselves, people who refuse to follow doctors' orders, and people who simply spend their money foolishly. Why should taxes go to pay for tylenol for a person who "can't afford it" but can afford cigarettes? Why should tax dollars be used to pay for a prescription for someone who has "no money" but walks into the ER drinking a $2 soda and munching on a bag of chips? I know that not everyone who recieves free health care abuses the system, but I find it very sad that there is not way to stop the ones that do. When I worked ER, I had a huge amount of people who expected or demanded free OTC meds because they had no money or couldn't afford them and four hours later I would see the same person standing in line of the snack bar at the movie theater. Can't afford a $2 bottle of generic tylenol, but can afford to take three kids to the movie and spend $20 on snacks. Doesn't seem quite fair to me that I have to budget my money and plan for emergencies and keep my medicine chest stocked with tylenol and such while other people get free health care but drive $20,000 cars and go to the movies every weekend. Wish I could afford that.

jenac · May 7, 2003

I think each of us can relate hundreds of stories about people who milk the system-and do it quite well. How many years have we had to sit and watch people living better than we are on public assistance? These are the people I'd love to strap up-and whom the Government has tried to somewhat force to be responsible in some small part. Welfare can't last forever anymore. Excessive Medicare costs have been cut-or atleast curbed. Disability has caught on to the fakers. But we have also created a system overwrought with so many problems-in which more and more people who are forced to pay taxes are struggling due to the ever-increasing taxes we face. How many times have we seen Joe Blow get a liver transplant because his is shot due to years of drinking and drugs, while Jane Innocent dies because she can't get one in time? I'd love just once for the Government to ASK me which one I'd pay for.

It is just as frustrating to me-to watch flat out lazy people live better lives than I can, while I work my bum off taking care of them to earn a paycheck. I would love to take my kids to the movies every weekend-heck, once a month would be great. But, due to over-inflated heathcare costs, I'll be lucky to afford my Tylenol, let alone a movie night. How is that fair? Why should these people have better access to Dr. and hospitals and medications than me or my family? Why should their kids get faster care than mine, just because I don't have the extra cash sitting around to pay for an office visit, or a Medicaid card handy? The answer is simple- our Government says they can-because I make too much. (Guess I'm still waiting for THAT paycheck...), so I'm on my own. Back to the original evil- pay the outrageous premiums for heathcare coverage, or face the outrageous costs on my own, either way-something else doesn't get paid and my life never improves.

You can say that each of us should be individually accountable for our heathcare- and that may work (God knows I'd save a bundle in taxes..). But right now- that's not the case. By turning your back on the ones who screw the system-you also turn your backs on the ones whom the system was created for. What about them? There is something to be said for equality in heathcare...

flashpoint · May 7, 2003

I know that some people cannot afford health care at all, but everyone should take responsibility for their health care as they are able. I think that if people even had to pay $1 for an ER or office visit, they would consider them a little more carefully. No one should be denied care based on ability to pay, but only people who truly cannot pay should get care for free. Everyone else should have to contribute even if it is a very small amount.

jenac · May 7, 2003

Cotjockey- I do agree with you in part. :) Maybe even paying a $1 would make the people in your example more responsible. It would be nice to see. I'm not necessarily saying everyone should have free heathcare- just an equal opportunity. I take pride in my hardwork and the fact that everything I have, I have worked for. I have no problem paying for healthcare-atleast AFFORDABLE, realistic heathcare.