Is my boss committing fraud?

HonestRN · May 4, 2008

to skincarespecialist: it is "wasting" not "waisting".

skincarespecialist · May 4, 2008

I did wasting-waisting as for you to remember the statement I was making. If, I did not make a point in the mispelled word you might not remember the encouragemnt I was trying to give you. I wanted you to remeber my words and not to worry about someone elses problems.

Skin Care Specialist

skincarespecialist · May 5, 2008

:bowingpur I just want you to be happy and not worry about making statements against the nurse just because you think she is following rules.

fins · May 5, 2008

Fraud is a legal term, so I don't know if she is committing fraud or not. She is being dishonest, obviously.

I agree with Tweety's point about picking your battles. There is absolutely no difference in the scope of practice available to a nurse who has the CCRN compared to those who don't. This manager's job isn't going to change one bit by taking the exam. So this isn't any kind of threat to patients. So the question is, who gains what, and who loses what, depending on whether you act or don't act.

If you don't act, the manager loses, because she ends up with an empty credential and loses the respect of her staff who know that she lied to get it. Other nurses with the CCRN lose (slightly) because there is one person diluting the purity of the credential.

If you do act, the person who loses most is you. You antagonize your boss, and open yourself up to the possibility of all sorts of retaliation, both overt and subtle. Your evals aren't quite as good as they were before, and your raise isn't either. Your vacation doesn't get approved. That urgent shift change that you request just doesn't get accommodated.

I'm not questioning your motives. I just passed the CCRN exam after studying for months, so I can understand the frustration with someone who doesn't even qualify for it taking the exam. But she's not falsifying her history to become an NP, or a CRNA or something, so it won't change what she does one bit. I would just suggest that you consider whether opening yourself up to potentially vicious retaliation is worth it for the sake of abstract justice. If your manager doesn't have any ethical qualms about lying about her qualifications, I doubt her sense of justice would get in the way of crushing you if you **** her off.

In my experience, nobody is more offended at being called a liar, than a liar.

ASSEDO · May 5, 2008

have you every seen a driver driving a car 5 miles over the speed limit? you don't go out of your way to report that person to the highway patrol; you mind your own business (myob) until you get to where you’re going.

i may be bias, but i don't believe in reporting anyone. a lesson i learned on my mother knee and perfected by the second grade.

myob is an art, learned from experience. save your energy for other battles, if you report this person, you will need all the energy you can get to look for another job.

skincarespecialist · May 5, 2008

Smithbc1

I think you are pretty smart! I agree with you. I have seen nurses report nurse or other specialized specialists hoping they "caught" this person doing wrong. In the end it did not do any good to report that nurse because we just do not have all the information right. I remember in my early years of nursing when I reported a nurse for something. It just made me look bad because the other nurse was higher ranking than myself. I think I waisted energy. I should have MYOB.

Skin Care Specialist

Tweety, BSN, RN · May 5, 2008

Critical care practice as a registered nurse is required for 1,750 hours in direct bedside care of (adult, neonatal or pediatric) acutely or critically ill patients during the 2-year period preceding date of application, with 875 of those hours accrued in the most recent year preceding application...
Nurses serving as manager, educator (in-service or academic), CNS or preceptor may now apply their hours spent supervising nursing students or nurses at the bedside. Nurses in these roles must be actively involved in caring for patients at the bedside; for example, demonstrating how to measure pulmonary artery pressures or supervising a new employee or student nurse performing a procedure.
The bold part is their emphasis, not mine. This is a direct quote from CCRN eligibility rules on the AACN website.
http://web.aacn.org/WD/Certifications/Content/ccrn.pcms?pid=309&mid=2869#Initial

Thanks for the clarification. My certification is with the ANCC (the magnet people) which is a different one than AACN which was confusing me.

HardwrknRN · May 12, 2008

My RN Manager is taking an exam this weekend for a national certification in my practice area. The certifying organization decided one year ago, and has prominently posted on its website and in its pertinent papers, through a very clear and unambiguous position statement, that managers who do not meet the direct care requirement are not eligible to write this exam. My manager submitted an application with corroborating signatures from other certified RNs (probably HER bosses) that she met this requirement. She does not. I have been torn between the desire to ask her privately if she is aware of her ineligibility or to request that the certifying organization make a determination themselves. I'll probably do nothing. But I sure hope she flunks. Ideas anyone?

I think that you are acting mean and catty to hope that one of your own coworkers flunks thier certification test. Nurses have it hard enough and need to stick together. By the way, my boss sat for the PCCN, there are 2 ways to qualify, one way is with direct patient care and there is another way for managers, ect. By the way, she passed:yeah: I am thrilled that she passed and cannot be happier. My manager is an valuable resource for information/teaching and is well respected. Now back to you, stop being a hater:down:, be a congratulator:up: Who in the heck wants to be managed by someone that doesn't understand the dynamics of the unit...Duh! How is that helping anyone? :bugeyes:

kindaquazie · May 12, 2008

healthcare fraud, in any form, is the business of every professional nurse. in my hospital, nurses receive $2 per hour additional pay for certification. thus, the emoluments received would constitute financial fraud if someone lied to facilitate sitting for the exam. unethical behavior such as lying (remember veracity?) is also a breach of the code of ethics for nurses. the fact that this person is in a position of power, makes the offense all the more egregious.

a person can be a ccrn without joining the aacn, however, if you are a member of the certifying body, you have an additional responsibility to report this possible fraud. you can do so anonymously and your boss will never know. the applications of most agencies state that if any information is found to be fraudulent the applicant will be denied. your employer should want to know if one of their managers, or several, is committing fraud. the certifying agency may be able to bring this to attention of hr or some other appropriate party within your institution. i firmly believe that if someone is willing to lie to obtain certification that they cannot be trusted in any position of authority, including patient care.

please do not ignore this.

HardwrknRN · May 12, 2008

healthcare fraud, in any form, is the business of every professional nurse. in my hospital, nurses receive $2 per hour additional pay for certification. thus, the emoluments received would constitute financial fraud if someone lied to facilitate sitting for the exam. unethical behavior such as lying (remember veracity?) is also a breach of the code of ethics for nurses. the fact that this person is in a position of power, makes the offense all the more egregious.
a person can be a ccrn without joining the aacn, however, if you are a member of the certifying body, you have an additional responsibility to report this possible fraud. you can do so anonymously and your boss will never know. the applications of most agencies state that if any information is found to be fraudulent the applicant will be denied. your employer should want to know if one of their managers, or several, is committing fraud. the certifying agency may be able to bring this to attention of hr or some other appropriate party within your institution. i firmly believe that if someone is willing to lie to obtain certification that they cannot be trusted in any position of authority, including patient care.
please do not ignore this.

managers usually are salaried, so i don't think that they are looking for that extra couple of dollars, (though where i work certification has no bearing on salary). also, she is not 100% positive her nurse manager lied on the application. i don't think that reporting her boss anonymously is such a great idea, if there were any actions taken against her boss, or if they just investigated and found nothing, i think that many would have a good idea about who may have told. heaven help that nurse if her boss was legit to sit for that exam. by the way we all know what they say about payback, and ppl that assume things for that matter. :twocents:

Quickbeam, BSN, RN · May 12, 2008

I have a bit different spin on this. I hold a certification which I value highly and have maintained for 17 years. I have to re-up it every 5 years with CEUs and documentation. The requirements have changed often over the years. I am now in a job which is much different than my certification originally covered. I reached out to the accrediting organization as a professional and asked them to either document that they'd accept my current work as acceptable or tell me no and I'd let it lapse, with regret. I got a registered letter indicating that they'd happily accept my current experience as relevant.

Many certification organizations have lost members over the years and are reaching out with a "bigger tent" philosophy. I'm not saying that applies to the OP's situation.

Personally, I'd let it go.

CNSAlicia · May 18, 2008

Unless you know her schedule where you both work or whether she has a part time job elsewhere to meet the clinical components, you really don't know! Additionally, some employers give pay raises to nurses that are certified. I can tell you that although I taught Med-Surg for several years, it was discussions from fellow faculty who were actively working and my own Clinical experience that allowed me to pass the ANCC Med-Surg Generalist and Med-Surg CNS exams.