Is the AA profession gaining ground?

skipaway · Mar 27, 2007

I hope you guys realize that if Medicare considers anesthesia a nursing profession they will slash reimbursements like crazy. You'll be lucky to make 100k after that. Don't say I didn't warn you.

Don't need to be warned. I love my job, the money, while great, is not why I'm a CRNA.

paindoc · Mar 28, 2007

The requirements for recertification for MD anesthesiologists were not implemented due to "public safety concerns" as is being espoused here but was part of an effort by the ABMS long term effort to require recertification by all specialties. The ABA, being a part of the ABMS, had no choice but to comply. It was not due to some public outcry against anesthesiologists practicing unsafe medicine but was due to the ABMS paradigm that was established at least 10 years earlier. I was involved in these discussions with the ABMS at that time.

If AAs do indeed make the same amount of money as the astronomical nursing salaries of CRNAs, then it makes less sense to have AAs since this does not save the medical system money. My information derived from the AA website cross referenced with salary.com info about CRNAs was that AAs make significantly less income. If this is not the case, then I don't understand the point of having AA programs.

CRNAs do not make themselves available in all situations of anesthesia delivery. For instance, CRNAs will not come to a physicians office and administer anesthesia for chronic pain medicare cases since they will not be reimbursed by Medicare when billing for themselves. The CRNAs therefore demand part of the meager income the physician makes off these poorly reimbursed procedures to grace us with their presence. Most pain physicians practicing in an office setting are keenly aware of this fact and utilize the skills of trained RNs that are part of the office staff to deliver the anesthesia that the CRNAs, for financial reasons, refuse to do.

jwk · Mar 28, 2007

jwk,
MDA's still must meet ABA requirments, reguardless of what state they practice in -
Why are you so down on CRNA's?

You need to READ my posts. The only CRNA's I have a problem with are the ones who seek to keep me from practicing in any state I so choose. You want to practice anywhere? Fine - I'm not trying to stop you. You want to practice independently? Great - go for it. But when it comes to MY practice rights, you want to restrict/stomp on/prohibit me and other AA's at every turn. Do you not see the blatant hypocrisy there?

deepz · Mar 28, 2007

....... CRNAs therefore demand part of the meager income the physician makes...........

Oh please.............

!

paindoc · Mar 28, 2007

Many chronic pain patients require sedation for pain procedures. The reimbursement a physician receives in an ASC or hospital for these Medicare procedures is 1/3 the amount a physician would make in an office. The average pain physician makes $330,000 a year in income. A CRNA makes (with benefits) $170,000-220,000 per year So for a physician to employ a CRNA half time in the office to perform sedation would cost the physician approximately 1/3 of his yearly income. For Medicare patients, the physician is reimbursed ZERO to have a CRNA come in and provide sedation. If CRNAs are willing to work for a reasonable rate, I think more pain physicians would entertain using them in an office setting but until that time, we will use RNs, that are just as capable.

deepz · Mar 28, 2007

As we often say to those who think we're overpaid, paindoc, it's not too late for you also: applications to CRNA school are being accepted every day still.

d

FlGasman · Mar 29, 2007

Many chronic pain patients require sedation for pain procedures. The reimbursement a physician receives in an ASC or hospital for these Medicare procedures is 1/3 the amount a physician would make in an office. The average pain physician makes $330,000 a year in income. A CRNA makes (with benefits) $170,000-220,000 per year So for a physician to employ a CRNA half time in the office to perform sedation would cost the physician approximately 1/3 of his yearly income. For Medicare patients, the physician is reimbursed ZERO to have a CRNA come in and provide sedation. If CRNAs are willing to work for a reasonable rate, I think more pain physicians would entertain using them in an office setting but until that time, we will use RNs, that are just as capable.

Well since CRNAs have 75-80 % of the education time as a pain doc, I think 50 % salary is more then reasonable

If Pain docs worked for a reasonable rate, maybe we could make 75-80% if their salary as our education should dictate. Furthermore, if the Crnas just quit as a group, MDAs and surgeons (and the public) would be way out of luck! Unless MDAs quit sleeping to work 24-7.

On a separate note, I don't think it behooves the CRNAs as a whole to treat AA's as MDA in SOME cases treat Crna's. They are going to be oratcicing in all 50 states, we should welcome them to the team and accept that there is plenty to go arouns. This is just creating hostility and not going to stop the inevitable.

FlGasman · Mar 29, 2007

The requirements for recertification for MD anesthesiologists were not implemented due to "public safety concerns" as is being espoused here but was part of an effort by the ABMS long term effort to require recertification by all specialties. The ABA, being a part of the ABMS, had no choice but to comply. It was not due to some public outcry against anesthesiologists practicing unsafe medicine but was due to the ABMS paradigm that was established at least 10 years earlier. I was involved in these discussions with the ABMS at that time.
If AAs do indeed make the same amount of money as the astronomical nursing salaries of CRNAs, then it makes less sense to have AAs since this does not save the medical system money. My information derived from the AA website cross referenced with salary.com info about CRNAs was that AAs make significantly less income. If this is not the case, then I don't understand the point of having AA programs.
CRNAs do not make themselves available in all situations of anesthesia delivery. For instance, CRNAs will not come to a physicians office and administer anesthesia for chronic pain medicare cases since they will not be reimbursed by Medicare when billing for themselves. The CRNAs therefore demand part of the meager income the physician makes off these poorly reimbursed procedures to grace us with their presence. Most pain physicians practicing in an office setting are keenly aware of this fact and utilize the skills of trained RNs that are part of the office staff to deliver the anesthesia that the CRNAs, for financial reasons, refuse to do.

Yes, in general we think of MDAs as having meager income, they drive old cars and are just about to have to get on food stamps

urgewrx · Mar 29, 2007

Well since CRNAs have 75-80 % of the education time as a pain doc...

Are you insane? A pain doc has 13 years of education. 4-BS, 4-MD, 4-residency (neurology, anesthesiology, or PMR), and 1 -pain fellowship.

CRNA has 7 years of education: 4-BSN, 3 MSN. The one year of ICU you are actually WORKING AT 100% ICU PAY, thus does not count.

Actually you have 54% of the education they have.

jwk · Mar 29, 2007

Well since CRNAs have 75-80 % of the education time as a pain doc.

Puhleeeeze....is that the new fuzzy math the kids are using in grade school?

ralatek · Mar 31, 2007

Paindoc,

According to the AA website, CRNA and AA salaries are virtually the same. I've also read statements on this board that jwk's CRNA colleagues earn the same amount as his AA colleagues. Interesting. Makes me wonder what the real salary comparisons are?

n_g · Mar 31, 2007

"CRNAs have 75-80 % of the education time as a pain doc"

That's hilarious. CRNA = 2 years post-bac. Pain doc = 4 years med school + 4 years residency + 1 year fellowship = 9 years

2/9 = 22%