International Student Advisors

Spirit25 · Sep 30, 2008

Hi All

I have been reading this whole thread over the last few days and found some of the comments very interesting.

I know someone who is currently on the BSC in Health and Social Care course at Anglia Ruskin University and has already completed their first module and just started on their second module.

For anyone worried about this particular course I can confirm this is not a scam, the person I know has been very happy with the course content and support from the University.

They are not limited to only 20hours of work if it is a requirement from the University to have a full time placement in a care setting. I was unsure of this myself at first so did my research and working more than 20 hours a week is allowed and this is shown on the UK border agency website.

www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply/infs/inf5students

I hope this helps anyone who has doubts about this scheme, that this course is genuine and has given someone I know a great opportunity that they could not have had back home.

Silverdragon102, BSN · Sep 30, 2008

Hi All
I have been reading this whole thread over the last few days and found some of the comments very interesting.
I know someone who is currently on the BSC in Health and Social Care course at Anglia Ruskin University and has already completed their first module and just started on their second module.
For anyone worried about this particular course I can confirm this is not a scam, the person I know has been very happy with the course content and support from the University.
They are not limited to only 20hours of work if it is a requirement from the University to have a full time placement in a care setting. I was unsure of this myself at first so did my research and working more than 20 hours a week is allowed and this is shown on the UK border agency website.
www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply/infs/inf5students
I hope this helps anyone who has doubts about this scheme, that this course is genuine and has given someone I know a great opportunity that they could not have had back home.

I really have my suspicions on this because there is no shortage in the UK and giving false hope to nurses is unfair and unfair to the thousands of nurses currently training in the UK and who then struggle to find work when they complete their training. Why should a nurse then go on to do a course which has no formal recognition (as stated on website) in the hope that they can use it as experience to stay in the UK. Regardless on private or public sector the employer has to meet the same requirements and prove that they can not employ UK/EU citizen first.

I personally feel this is just a way to exploit people

henry57 · Sep 30, 2008

Silverdragon102, you may be right, but can you advise an overseas nurse what to do, where to go, what options they have?

Should they stay in their own country unemployed, with no options or work as a volunteer nurse without pay, or hope for some miracle that will put food on the table and clothes on their children?

Spirit25 has said that this has given someone an opportunity they could not have had back home, would you deny them this chance in case it had an effect on those UK nurses training in the UK?

I say again why would any UK employer go through the minefield of trying to employ overseas nurses if they could be so easily found here in the UK, it does not make sense!

I have spoken to countless NHS employed nurses who have stated that under no circumstances would they choose to work in the Private Sector, so who looks after our mums and dads, our brothers and sisters, it is often the overseas nurses that we have come to rely on.

I think I have said enough, so do not expect any more responses from me, it is for others to comment from now on, I am just glad that at least two Universities have come up with courses that can help and benefit overseas nurses as well as the UK nurses who have also enrolled on these self same courses, one of which apparently has no formal recognition, I wonder how our UK nurses feel about this!

allnurses Guide · Sep 30, 2008

I say again why would any UK employer go through the minefield of trying to employ overseas nurses if they could be so easily found here in the UK, it does not make sense!
I have spoken to countless NHS employed nurses who have stated that under no circumstances would they choose to work in the Private Sector, so who looks after our mums and dads, our brothers and sisters, it is often the overseas nurses that we have come to rely on.

I am losing countless NHS employed nurses to the private sector, I think your logic is flawed, I would love to keep them but unfortunatley there are no jobs, therefore in order to work they are going to the private sector. The job shortage in the NHS doesn't just affect the NHS it impacts on the private sector because these nurses need to work so they take the jobs that are available.

I think I have said enough, so do not expect any more responses from me, it is for others to comment from now on, I am just glad that at least two Universities have come up with courses that can help and benefit overseas nurses as well as the UK nurses who have also enrolled on these self same courses, one of which apparently has no formal recognition, I wonder how our UK nurses feel about this!

The UK nurses who do this course already have UK registration therefore gaining a further degree helps thier career progression, after I completed my training I did a non-nursing degree in healthcare, because the modules interested me. To an international student who does not meet the criteria for UK registration it will be of no use as it's not going to be of benefit in any other country and is not a stand alone qualification, the link I provided does not mention the ONP either.

There are no shortage of carers in the UK, and more and more UK people are out of work especially in the current economic climate, so essentially these "students" are coming to provide cheap labour in jobs that could and should go to UK citizens.

Spirit, thank you for the link to the boarders agency and we here frequently hear of members who know of others who are going through the process, but we rarely here from those people directly. It would be fantastic if your friend could register and provide us with a first hand account rather than hearsay

Spirit25 · Oct 1, 2008

Hi All,

Thank you all for your comments all very useful but it is getting a little deep for me as I don't want to comment on the ONP nursing side as I do not know all the facts.

I would like to thank Henry57 in particular as it is nice to see someone sticking up for Overseas nurses for a change, I am not saying anyone else isn't, I do also understand the reservations some may have and I understand everyone has there own opinions and this is why the forums are here but some of the comments must be putting students off and influencing them in their decisions.

I can only say that people must make their own mind up but from my experience it has been a fantastic oppotunity and I will off course ask the person I know to register and make a comment about their experiences with this particular scheme.

allnurses Guide · Oct 1, 2008

I want to thank you Spirit and Henry for your comments and like you Spirit there are elements of the Visa and Immigration I also struggle with at times. I have highlighted your last few posts as they have helped clarify in my mind where this BSc Health and Social care fits. As you both have said, the candidates who apply for this are not workers, they are students undergoing a full time acaedemic course with placements as a requirement.

Hi Sharrie, briefly - 1) they are not restricted to only 20 hours as the course requires a full time work placement. 2) These are students not workers. 3) Many of these students are mature students with nursing experience, others are newly graduated and will benefit from the experience and they are not senior carers.

Hi All
They are not limited to only 20hours of work if it is a requirement from the University to have a full time placement in a care setting.

Hi All,
Thank you all for your comments all very useful but it is getting a little deep for me as I don't want to comment on the ONP nursing side as I do not know all the facts.

Unless I am mistaken I have to then assume that these placements are not paid, therefore the students are going to have to prove to UK boarders control that they are able to support themselves for the duration of the course.

With this in mind is that not going to make it very difficult for overseas nurse to actually undertake such a course as funding and supporting yourself on such a degree program is going to be expensive.

SO maybe an option for those nurses who have substantial collateral to support themselves but not as an alternative to finding work in thier home country.

With the links I have read I have (those that I have posted) I have found no mention of the Overseas nursing program, so this course is not going to provide what is needed to register as a nurse in the UK. Additionally spending 2 years doing a course that is not a nursing course and not working as a qualified nurse may well mean they don't meet the criteria to apply for an ONP on completion.

Spirit, I don't think that anyone is not "sticking up" for the overseas nurse, on the contrary my concern (and the other international moderators) is that these vunerable nurses who are so desperate to gain work will jump at anything are being taken advantage of and encouraged to undertake programs that will cost them money and not actually benefit them. If I were in their situation I would hope that someone would do the same for me.

It's not unknown for employees of these companies to register and post here in attempts to paint a rosier picture and I would just encourage any nurse who is considering taking such a huge step to research it and make sure they know exactly what they are getting into. You are quite right, although there is a great deal of information here and on other forums, but they are well advised to actually contact the boarders agency and the Nursing and Midwifery Council to see if the information that these companies are giving them is in fact correct

Ginger's Mom, MSN, RN · Oct 1, 2008

Spirit25, in my opinion you should be thanking people like Silverdragon and Sharrie, they have no hidden agendas.

It sounds to me the degree being offered would have no value unless you are a permanent resident in the UK or where planning to go back home an sponsor a similar healthcare model. It won't open any doors for nursing employment.

If you have tutition money and money to live on it is a great opportunity. My son did 6 months at York St John. He was not allowed to work. He found the cost of living much higher than the USA. He worked 2 jobs in the summer so he could have this experience. He was not allowed to stay longer than the letter the University Provider him with. He loved his experience and loved being in the UK. His college did a trade so he only had to pay for transportation and expenses.

Spirit25 · Oct 2, 2008

Sharrie, thank you for your comments I am just trying to advise everyone of what I have been told and I am sure my Filipino friend will also add her comments shortly.

I believe your assumption is wrong, I am pretty sure the planning for these courses took over two years to complete and part of it was making sure that the universities were able to have available paid work placements to allow overseas students to help fund their studies, your major concern was thought about and shared by the universities, students and those offering work placements. They receive the minimum wage at the very least whilst studying some receiving more and employers in effect act as sponsors and enter into a learners agreement with the student and university to make sure studies are balanced with work assignments. The long term concerns for healthcare in the UK seemingly being considered by all those involved in this programme not just for today but for the future.

Both universities have recognised and established ONP programmes, I checked this out myself on their web sites, and for those that qualify will either be able to enrol in their final semester or once they have graduated so during the next two years during their graduate work placement, which they get once they have their degree.

I also understand from my friend that the university have advised the nmc of these schemes and what the potential outcome is. I do not think anyone is taking advantage of vulnerable nurses on this scheme as the nurse gets paid whilst she studies, gains a UK degree to add additional benefit to her nursing degree, gets 4 years in the uk both to study and then work and many will have the opportunity of going on the ONP. Also for those non-licensed nurses they get the same benefits but cannot go for the ONP.

Visas would not have been issued to so many nurses if this did not meet immigration rules, but I agree with you it is good these type of courses are questioned as there are many with no benefits, but wrong to assume they are all worthless and only relevant if you are a uk resident, but I have not seen anyone in these threads offer viable alternatives or actually mention a failed university scheme.

Our world is changing and what might have been applicable last year may not be the same now. New initiatives are coming out and some like this one seem to have been thought through carefully to benefit the nurses the most, but Sharrie and Silverdragon are right check them out yourself speak to the university co-ordinators, I am just telling you what I have been told lets hear from any nurses on this scheme as it would be wrong to put nurses off a scheme that seems to be working, as much as warning nurses if the programme does not work.

Thank you all again for your replies.

suzanne4, RN · Oct 3, 2008

Sorry, but student visas only permit work of no more than 20 hours per week. There is no such thing as full-time placement that one can be paid for per the terms of the student visa in any country.

For a program to tell you otherwise, is just grounds for getting the visa cancelled. And the work is not done as a nurse since there is no nursing license involved, so it is that of a caregiver and at minimum salary as well.

You can select whom you wish to believe. I would side with the moderators that actually hold licenses in the UK and are very aware of what is happening there right now and do not have any outside agendas in what one does.

The UK has a hiring freeze in place, pure and simple. Getting a license there does not get one a visa and that is even much harder to be getting, but the above poster never makes mention of that. Only of the PIN number and that does not get one entry to remain in the UK and work in the role of the RN. Not having two years of current work experience will also hamper getting a visa, but that is not even discussed.

Yes, there are two sides to each and every story, and not all of it is being presented to you. Just the marketing side of it by a recruiter, and nothing more than that.

henry57 · Oct 3, 2008

susanne, i would prefer to leave this topic, but i think i can help you with this as rather than asking people to choose between what they read in this thread why not just check out the facts and follow this link from the uk borders agency rather than listening to other's opinions, after all that is what has been constantly suggested by all of us?

perhaps as a 'moderator' if you see it the actual wording you will be more inclined to see what the rules are, then let nurses decide what they think is best for them. the uk does not have a hiring freeze in the private sector, but a resident market test to see if a uk/eu national applies first, must be completed before an overseas nurse may be considered, and if you are not sure of the programme why not speak to the universities? i was told of a nurse just today enrolling on the onp with anglia ruskin university who is also on the bsc (hons) health and social care course, so the two do exist together - can i just add, you don't seem to be aware of the additional two years now available to newly graduated overseas students, whether they are a nurse or not that enables them to stay on and gain further work experience or look for a full time career in the uk and therefore gives them up to 4 years in the uk not just 2.

the link:

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply/infs/inf5students

students (inf 5)

guidance - students (inf 5)

last updated 10 july 2008

can i work?

you can take part-time or holiday work, but you must not:

work for more than 20 hours a week during term time unless your placement is part of your studies, has been agreed with your educational institution and leads to a degree or qualification awarded by a nationally recognised examining body

allnurses Guide · Oct 3, 2008

Thank you for those links Henry, having a quick read through the "Permit Free Employment" (INF 14) which is the stay after graduate studies you are talking about I can see various professions listed. The links provided in this says

If you graduated from a UK university or other educational institution within the last 12 months with a bachelor's degree, master's degree, postgraduate certificate or diploma, or PhD, you may be able to apply to stay in the UK and get a job for an extra year after your degree course finishes, without getting a work permit. For more information, please see the section on the International Graduates Scheme in our Permit free employment (INF 14) guidance.

And that links leads to this page

Permit-free employment means some types of work that you do not need a work permit for, such as:
minister of religion, missionary or member of a religious order
sole representative of an overseas company in the UK
representatives of overseas newspapers, news agencies and broadcasting organisations
airport-based operational ground staff of overseas-owned airlines
teachers and language assistants coming to the UK under approved exchange schemes
seasonal agricultural workers
overseas government employees
science and engineering graduates, and
dependants of any of these workers.

I can't see nurses or carers on there anywhere.

How long can I stay as a postgraduate from this link

Doctors and dentists
At first we will give you permission to stay in the UK for up to 26 months. If you have already completed one year of a Foundation Programme, we will give you permission to stay for 14 months to complete it. We can extend your permission to stay as a postgraduate doctor or dentist for up to three years in total.
Teachers and language assistants coming to the UK under approved exchange schemes
You must:
be coming to an educational establishment in the UK under an exchange scheme approved by the Department for Education and Skills (DfES), the Scottish or Welsh Office of Education or the Department of Education, Northern Ireland, or administered by the British Council's Education and Training Group or the League for the Exchange of Commonwealth Teachers
intend to leave the UK at the end of your exchange period
not intend to take employment except as described in this section, and
be able to support yourself and any dependants, and live without needing any help from public funds.
The sponsoring organisation (who arranges the exchange) will normally issue teachers with a numbered 'certificate of appointment'. This contains their personal details, and details of where and for how long they will be working.
You should show your certificate of appointment to the Entry Clearance Officer when you make your application.

Again no mention of Nurses or carers in this link either.

Spirit25 · Oct 3, 2008

Suzanne, yes your right there are two sides of each and every story.

I think Henry has answered my question for me but I would just like to say again the link regarding 20 hours work has come from the UK border agency website and clearly states they can work for more than 20 hours a week if it is a requirement from the University to do so.