INELIGIBLE FOR CA BON DUE TO CONCURRENTLY DONE CASES... --US citizen (was born in CA)

greenjungle · Feb 15, 2012

That's too much.

akulahawkRN, ADN, RN, EMT-P · Feb 15, 2012

There's only one explaination for this kind of close scrutiny that comes to my mind... they likely want to keep RN's that were educated outside California (even overseas) from getting licensed in California. They may be attempting to tighten the new-grad market in California so that people have a better chance at getting hired soon after graduating NS. Just in the past couple months, I've seen a lot of posts by people educated in the Philipines getting denied for similar reasons. It's a good thing and a bad thing...

loriangel14, RN · Feb 15, 2012

I am a US CITIZEN, with SS card and a blue passport since I was born here in CA but was educated in the Philippines (CEBU).
My problem was that I was found to be ineligible for the NCLEX.
They replied this...
" The courses on your transcripts and clinical records do not correspond to when the training was supposed to have been completed. We also show your clinicals were not completed concurrently. Concurrently means theory and clinicals are to be completed in the same semester. Your cases that should have been completed in N101 were completed were completed in N 104 and 105 and in May 2010. The major and minor should have been completed in N102 but were completed in N104 and 105 and in May 2010.. Because of these discrepaancies in your academic program, we cannot consider you eligible for the NCLEX-RN examination."
They told me to be an LVN, or talk to a nursing director and complete an approved nursing program or apply to another state..
WOW. WHY NOW? I know some who were found eligible for CA BON. They should post something about this in their website because I think they just keep on receiving money and wasting people's time and effort.
I am now looking up to apply to another state (NY , NJ or FL) since the CA BON is giving me no choice.
I personally would find it insulting for them to say this. So what if I finished my Major case #5 two semesters after my previous cases..? as long as I did accomplish them.. It doesnt mean that I failed my MEd surg.
My sister who is enrolled at Mount St. Mary's (in CA) found this also "odd"..
Oh well, NY here I come!

There is a tread on this forum about the recent changes in requirements by the BON in CA.This will be the reason.

sallyp911 · Feb 16, 2012

Yes, please read over the heavily discussions in this forum of the various recent postings of the CA BON requirements.

I have been doing some research myself, as I am also trying to help a fellow PH friend, who I met while visiting Manila and many cities while on vacation with my family several years ago. I myself am a non-Fillipina.

The thing is that NONE of the changes are actually recent, they (CA BON) is just merely enforcing their rules and regulations that have been in existence since 2003! Nothing has changed on those certain requirements, it was always there.

These changes has NOTHING to do with any overseas applicants...zero, zilch, nada!

The changes everyone is discussing here and getting upset is due to what happened to a CA college back in 2003, called Excelsior (do a search function on Excelsior in CA). ALL and EVERY Excelsior graduate from any US states can not get their licenses, nor try to apply and can no longer get an endorsement back into CA, even after 5 years of hard core nursing with 10,000 hours or more. The only exception is unless you are a Excelsior graduate prior to Dec. 2006, they are allowed to proceed in a regular fashion. But yet, CA BON was allowing most overseas applicants to take the NCLEX exam, but denying all CA Excelsior grads from applying and forced to apply out of state.

All Excelsior graduates from Jan. 2007 on are banned from ever applying into CA for their license, period. Excelsior fought in the CA court system since the 2003 ruling against them and three years, they lost the case.

http://www.rn.ca.gov/pdfs/forms/excelsiornewsrelease.pdf

http://www.rn.ca.gov/pdfs/forms/excelsiorcourtdecision.pdf

The state of Maryland also has restrictions with Excelsior graduates as well. There are other states that also has placed certain restrictions with Excelsior graduates but still able to get their licenses upon taking certain classes or work more hours.

Excelsior did not follow of what the CA BON requires to meet their standards. The fact that Excelsior chose not to so has put everyone of their future grads from 2006 in limbo, yet they still continued to tell all their future students everything is okay, don't worry, just keep applying for your student loans and mail in your money every month. The same thing was happening to the college standards as set forth in PH. The PH nursing education board and members did not change their ways to match the CA standards, they were right behind Excelsior's way of conducting their colleges and courses.

So instead of following the more approved and higher accredited colleges in CA, the PH educators turned a blind eye and kept everything status quo. These are things we as students should not have to worry about. We don't have time to read all the rules and regulations and it's not our job, it's the people who run the colleges and courses.

Please remember also that we had a nursing shortage several years ago and the now enforced rules was just being relaxed several years ago to alleviate the need for nurses here in the States. Tons of on-line US colleges popped up, charging from $38K to $70K for a two year ADN (assoc. degree) to meet the strong demand. But now even those with ADN degrees from all over the States are having a much tougher competing with the BSN's (most preferred, some now required in hospitals).

It truly has nothing to do with any overseas applicants per se, as long as what's been required from the CA BON since 2003 from their educational background was consistent. If the PH colleges has simply followed what we CA students had to go thru doing the clinicals at the same time with the theory part, the majority of PH grads would not be having these issues.

The CA BON sets their own standards, it's there for the PH education administrators to see and follow. I understand that it's not always possible in the PH to run your classes together with the theory, etc. But it's not you guys fault at all, you guys need to get your PH nursing administrators to meet CA minimum requirements, no matter how hard it is. True, the courses in PH are different as to what's required of you than in CA, but again, your college professors and nurses and hospitals needs to co-ordinate that on a much higher level and must be done so immediately and not wait. Tomorrow would be best, not next week.

Blaming the CA BON is not going to help your cases, you're dealing with 8 year old rules/regulations (probably even older) and will not change in the near future and has set those standards higher than any other US states. It's up to all the colleges to dot the I's and cross the T's. The CA standards are there for everyone to see and execute, nothing has changed from the CA BON's side, it was always there. There are USA colleges that CA BON will not accept, mostly based for the same reasons you're having troubles with, so it's truly not an overseas issue by any means.

As you can see, most PH students are now having to go back to their respective colleges, have their schools draft letters and explain why the CA BON should accept their explanations. It may work in some cases, but knowing CA BON if they see enough of the same thing over and over again, you can bet they could simply rule out any more letters of explanation and all future cases will be closed for good.

No more letters asking why this, why that, how's this. It will be based solely on your transcripts. My friend told me that many PH colleges are also either being closed down due to poor internal nurse testings or bad courses or the demand has died off, meaning soon, the colleges you graduated from will no longer be able to supply you with those letters, as their offices will be closed permanently.

The issues that could crop up is other US states might start to follow CA's steps and start enforcing their own state's rules and regulations, that may have not been as strict as CA's, but enough to start enacting them.

Best wishes to everyone going this uneventful time of your life. Having gone thru the rigors, hard studies, the stresses and strains of exams, etc. and time to celebrate your next step in your new working career only to have the doors slowly closing in.

I wish I could offer some kind of solution or suggestions. Maybe there is just not know what it is yet.

Good luck everyone!

Rntopaz · Feb 25, 2012

In my opininon having these cases done semesters away after the theory does not mean that we were not concurrently doing our clinical because students were also sent to the hospital to do clinicals related to the theory but unable to get cases since it is someone else's turn to take it.because like in ob there will be not enough patients to give birth during your entire ob exposure which maybe true when you will be in med surg. What i understand is that these cases are requirements for graduation that can be finished all throughout from 2nd year to 4th year and not necessarily be all done concurrently with the theory.What is upsetting for me too is that California students are not required to do these cases and yet our letters from CaBon says we do not meet the minimum requirements for California. For some California students they observe cases and not really required to do it though some of them said they did deliver babies.Still, in the end CaBon will have the final decision on our fate....so sad about it!

sallyp911 · Feb 25, 2012

In my opininon having these cases done semesters away after the theory does not mean that we were not concurrently doing our clinical because students were also sent to the hospital to do clinicals related to the theory but unable to get cases since it is someone else's turn to take it.because like in ob there will be not enough patients to give birth during your entire ob exposure which maybe true when you will be in med surg. What i understand is that these cases are requirements for graduation that can be finished all throughout from 2nd year to 4th year and not necessarily be all done concurrently with the theory.What is upsetting for me too is that California students are not required to do these cases and yet our letters from CaBon says we do not meet the minimum requirements for California. For some California students they observe cases and not really required to do it though some of them said they did deliver babies.Still, in the end CaBon will have the final decision on our fate....so sad about it!

Not true at all, I'm not sure where you get your statement about that CA students do not have to take those certain classes/courses concurrently together in the same semester.

But the fact is while we can sign up for these classes/courses in CA, it is ALWAYS forewarned to ALL those enrolling that these are NOT guaranteed to be taken together, but the college does it's best to find the clinical location and preceptor, if not, then, you will be removed from enrolling for that semester. Did I mention "ALWAYS"?

It is very hard here also to find a hospital and a preceptor nurse to shadow for the 8-12 hours. We have to follow that preceptor's schedule, even if it's from 7 p.m. to 7 a.m. and holidays, we don't have a choice, but we have to make sure we attend it or lose the credit. It is not usual to wait a few weeks but less than a month before we get to start the clinical part and the college manages to find the hospital and a willing nurse to help out.

So there's absolutely NO excuses that any or why of all the PH colleges cannot do the same thing. It's truly up to each PH college to meet the CA minimum requirements, especially, if they are stating to their student population that there's NO problem with having their courses to be 100% accepted by the CA BON. If not, there are other states that do not have the concurrency courses requirements. Again, this is something the PH colleges have known for many many years or if they didn't, you need to blame the PH college nursing board, not the CA BON. It's clearly written and stated in the CA BON rules, why didn't the PH college nursing board change their ways of meeting this one requirement?

Maybe some of the PH colleges just pack the students in, pay your tuition fees, get a student loan if you can't afford it for now, pay later and hope to find a hospital and a nurse to help out each student. That's why Excelsior College grads in CA are denied from getting the CA RN licenses, Excelsior did not meet the exact same minimum concurrent CA BON requirements. In fact, any Excelsior College grads from any state in the country can not get their CA license. They can file for an appeal, but there's not been one approved applicant since 2006 that I can find, so someone from a NY or TX Excelsior grad can not even endorse their license into CA. Maybe there's been one or two or a few, I don't know, but I can tell you I know of 29 CA Excelsior college grads that cannot get back into CA or had their license expired and cannot renew it. Their only option is to become a nurse outside of CA, unless they win their appeal or if the CA BON decides to relax the ruling again. This applies to ALL Excelsior US grads from Jan., 2007 onwards., those that graduated prior to Dec. 2006 are still allowed to get their CA license renewed without any effects.

With regards to baby deliveries, we're not allowed to do the actual cutting etc and that's due to CA laws and it's a medical doctor's job and mostly, it's an automatic lawsuit if a student nurse makes a mistake and something NO CA hospital wants to deal with. We will observe but that's it. It's not a requirement to cut anything. It's just medical protocol that a medical doctor or mid-wife or a couple of other medical members are allowed to do.

It's the same thing with some of the PH colleges in not meeting the CA minimum clinical hours for the med-surg units. It's nothing new that was recently added to the CA BON requirements, it's been there for years! Why not simply have the PH colleges increase the hours? How hard is that to add more hours?

I can't see blaming the CA BON staff members from doing their job to make sure that the rules are enforced. Any more than why a hospital has rules, why nurses have to follow certain rules in handling a patient, etc.

As some of the other PH grads have mentioned, you need to start the pressure from the main source of the problem: it's ALL those certain PH colleges that are NOT meeting or willingly to meet the CA minimum requirements. It's the future nurses already in those PH colleges that will also be facing the exact same thing the current ones are having to deal with, it will be too late for those planning to graduate by this summer. Meeting the CA BON minimum requirements will allow any PH grads to apply in any state in the country, as there are other states here that do not have such a strict requirement.

Are the future nursing students even aware of this serious problem(s)? Soon, there will be a new batch of PH grads coming out over the next several months and stockpiling the CA application process only to get denied and denied.

So many of the PH applicants are being denied AND failed due to the PH college nursing board NOT doing their job to keep up with the times, the older and ALWAYS there times!

If all these recent requests from PH grads asking for more documentation and clinical records and what-nots from their colleges, does it send a clear signal that something is wrong with the PH college system?

Rntopaz · Feb 25, 2012

@ sally 911I think you did not really read my post clearly like i meant it to be... Did you see that i said that California students does not need to complete these cases and i did not say classes coz i know your theory and clinicals were done concurrently coz i have spoken to california students already who are now rn and some of them were friends... And when i said cases i meant cord care, actual deliveries, assisted deliveries, minor and major scrub and circulating cases. Like you did a lot of PH students also observe cases in concurrent with theories but Ca Bon is looking when the cases were completed . PH school allows students to complete all the cases until their 4th year like i have mentioned and need not all be completed in concurrent with their theory.. I did not made up my statement coz a friend rn who studied here in california said she was not able to deliver baby,just observe and not even scrub surgical cases just like you said US law will not allow it coz of lawsuit which you also mentioned. In short ,be reminded that i said cases and not classes....and i am not blaming anybody...just stating my opinion about this.

sallyp911 · Feb 25, 2012

@ sally 911I think you did not really read my post clearly like i meant it to be... Did you see that i said that California students does not need to complete these cases and i did not say classes coz i know your theory and clinicals were done concurrently coz i have spoken to california students already who are now rn and some of them were friends... And when i said cases i meant cord care, actual deliveries, assisted deliveries, minor and major scrub and circulating cases. Like you did a lot of PH students also observe cases in concurrent with theories but Ca Bon is looking when the cases were completed . PH school allows students to complete all the cases until their 4th year like i have mentioned and need not all be completed in concurrent with their theory.. I did not made up my statement coz a friend rn who studied here in california said she was not able to deliver baby,just observe and not even scrub surgical cases just like you said US law will not allow it coz of lawsuit which you also mentioned. In short ,be reminded that i said cases and not classes....and i am not blaming anybody...just stating my opinion about this.

Ahh, ic, my PH friend that I'm trying to help out says the same thing about "cases", but she thinks I understand your "cases" and I take it as class course or studies, so yes, you're right, I didn't understand the term you used as in "cases". Yes, we didn't have those "cases" you speak of, thank you for the clarification.

So I wonder why the CA BON is digging into that so much of your "cases"? It seems to me that your "cases" go above and beyond what the CA BON needs? They should just see that it was done just not concurrently. Do you think that if I didn't get it, that's what's happening with the CA BON analyst?

Maybe the PH nursing board just needs to remove the "case" requirement for the very near future, unless it's something they feel is better suited in your country?

Good luck to you!

Rntopaz · Feb 25, 2012

@sally911I' m glad you got what i meant coz your post really hit me.like you said PH students went beyond what California students had done. All posters here are hoping, that CaBon realize that these cases even though not done in concurrent with theory does not mean that clinicals were not done concurrently. Because like i said these cases need not be completed on that specific time frame of theory... Cases can be completed until before graduation.We spoke with analyst who pointed out that cases were not done concurrently with theory coz most of the cases were done during fourth year... Senior years were given priorities of course or else they cannot graduate...i dont know... Still thinking on how to prove that clinicals were also done concurrently...there's gotta be a way.. Maybe have the school specify what had been done during that clinical coz ob and med surg is not only about these cases... Observation like what you guys have done or taking care of pt in labor,post partum women,pre op and post patients are also part of ob and med surg...idont know... What about you ,did your school have to specify what are being dont during clinicals and not simply your logbook showing you have your clinicals done concurrently with your theories.. Coz if you guys can just observe why they not consider foreign students too? Just thinking aloud ... I guess it will help if our PH board will not require these cases but "hands on" is also a good experience.What about your rn friend, did she submit her application yet... If she is still in PH she should coordinate with her school about this issue and maybe like i said have them help her prove that there was a concurrency even though cases were done later.Goodluck to your friend!

Ginger's Mom, MSN, RN · Feb 25, 2012

@sally911i' m glad you got what i meant coz your post really hit me.like you said ph students went beyond what california students had done. all posters here are hoping, that cabon realize that these cases even though not done in concurrent with theory does not mean that clinicals were not done concurrently.
that is great point, when you school submits your transcript, doesn't have
med surg 101- 01/01/01 - to 06/30/01 - theory hours 20
clinical hours at tb hospital - a1 telemetry unit -
7a- 3pm every monday and tuesday
student nurse absent - one day and clinical made
up 5/31/01
because like i said these cases need not be completed on that specific time frame of theory... cases can be completed until before graduation.we spoke with analyst who pointed out that cases were not done concurrently with theory coz most of the cases were done during fourth year... senior years were given priorities of course or else they cannot graduate...i dont know... still thinking on how to prove that clinicals were also done concurrently...there's gotta be a way.. maybe have the school specify what had been done during that clinical coz ob and med surg is not only about these cases... observation like what you guys have done or taking care of pt in labor,post partum women,pre op and post patients are also part of ob and med surg...i dont know...
these cases are a requirement of your homeland, not the usa, it seems to me the documentation your school submits does not have enought clinical hours, and the bon is trying to supplement clinical hours with your cases.
what about you ,did your school have to specify what are being done during clinicals and not simply your logbook showing you have your clinicals done concurrently with your theories..
in my state the clinical hours are tracked by the state, the instructor has to be cleared by the bon and hospital posts the students hours. the clinical instructor has a roster which is submitted to the dean. the clinical experiences are done at the same time as the theory.
student assignments are carefully mapped with the theory. there are no "cases" just clinical hours spent with an instructor/preceptor on the floor. there are ratios that have to be maintained, such as one instructor to 10 students, and the students all have their own patient or patients.
coz if you guys can just observe why they not consider foreign students too? just thinking allowed....i guess it will help if our ph board will not require these cases but "hands on" is also a good experience.what about your rn friend, did she submit her application yet... if she is still in ph she should coordinate with her school about this issue and maybe like i said have them help her prove that there was a concurrency even though cases were done later.goodluck to your friend!

in the us this no scrub or delivery requirements.

students who have theory and clinical concurrently have a higher pass rate on the nclex. observation alone is not enough, us schools provides hands on care, which each student with a masters prepared or an instructor with vast clinical experience supervising students and approved ahead of time by the board of nursing.

the bigger issue, i observed, the number of international students failing the nclex the first time they take it, that is seen as a failure in the educational system in the usa. when the majority of the applicants fail the bon needs to look at the applicants education.

i know many tried to avoid the high costs of a us education by going aboard, but it seems like the failure of so many failing the nclex has raised, themany flags at the bon. this with the fact there is not a demand for nurses makes the bon reflect and analyze each application.

Rntopaz · Feb 25, 2012

Opps i am not here to argue with any body.. I have read some of your post from other threads already so if that is your opinion about foreign graduates then so be it... I am here to check on what has been going on... hoping to find answers to my question...