I know there has been some speculation on this board in the past about if a nurse with the bare minimum experience should (or could) go to CRNA school. Well, I just got accepted.
I graduated in July 07 with my BSN. I was in a non-health care field prior to my BSN. I immediately went to work at a large teaching hospital in a med surg ICU. I worked very hard to learn everything I could, and I feel like I am currently a very competent ICU nurse.
I have been accepted to my program of choice for fall 08, when I will have one year experience as a nurse.
Understand I am not trying to shortcut anything. I worked very hard on my school studies and my clinical experience to be well prepared. I scored very well on the GRE. I shadowed a CRNA for ~ 40 hours. I have a 3.7~3.8 GPA. I spent my own time understanding the hemodynamics of the cardiopulmonary system, the MOA/effects of different vasopressors. I work with (and understand) vents, settings, therapies.
This route is not for everybody, but I am proof that you can do it. And I feel like I am very well prepared for the program. I just want other potential candidates to know that it can be done.
Congratulations Gump. Like someone said earlier, some people are afraid to apply because others are saying they should wait. I think it's all in the person. Yes the newer nurse may have a larger learning curve, but if they are up for it, then so be it. The anesthesia school teaches you what you need to know about anesthesia and everyday you learn in your experience. I'm sure you will be fine. Always know that there will be more conservative people who feel like you should have done it "their way", but if they are not on the interview board then it doesn't matter. I never got the impression that you felt like you know it all, only that you have a strong drive and desire to get where you want to be sooner rather than later. I'm taking notes here:) Keep your strong drive and keep your energy up. Anytime we have a CRNA to come up and intubate or start an A-line, I've never heard anyone ask "how many years were you a nurse, cause I only want experienced nurses putting in my mothers ETT". Just my one cent.
As to your first point, about ICU knowledge as a foundation: In anesthesia school you will find that much of what you or any other critical care nurse, no matter how experienced, thought you knew was grossly oversimplified or inaccurate.
Regarding the short-termer who used the ICU as a stepping stone: You clearly had issues with her lack of teamwork or work ethic, but the real issue in THIS forum is, did she have what she needed to succeed in anesthesia school. I kept my future plans to myself while in the ICU, precisely because of attitudes such as yours regarding the ICU as 'stepping stone'. I was also very much a team player with a strong work ethic, and none of my coworkers was worse off for having worked with me. On the flip side, I was berated and ostracized by a few queen bee nurses who were sure the ICU would come crashing down without them. They didn't like anyone new. Period. Especially the ones they couldn't intimidate and browbeat into leaving or constantly rearranging work assignments to please them. They have managed to chase away or make miserable nearly everyone who has come into the ICU in recent years, and then badmouth short-timers because they 'couldn't hack it' or 'used the ICU as a stepping stone'. I applaud anyone who sets goals, achieves them, and strives for excellence in all aspects of their life. Whether they've been in my unit for 2 years or 20. And I'm pleased to say that's the type of person in my anesthesia program.
You are the first CRNA student (you are currently one, correct?) who has told me that their ICU experience wasn't an asset to them in the program. Funny that. It's a true shame that there are so many users and abusers out there, such as the ladder climbers & the Queen Bee's. It's also a pity that some people have such escalated levels of arrogance that they cannot even recognize their own weaknesses (young and old nurses), and must feel so threatened by others. Such high regard for one's self is often the road to disaster. I go into school knowing that I only know a fraction of what I will need to know to succeed. I know my areas of weakness & am preparing for the challenge. I also know my areas of strength but never for one second assume that I know 1/10 of what I need to, for there is always more knowledge to absorb. CRNA school is like any other program in that you will get out of it what you put in. If you strive to only learn the basics to pass then you will have missed a wonderful opportunity to learn a great amount of information that will one day benefit you. I believe that all the people who will attend with me this year at TCU are qualified, wonderful individuals who obviously deserve to be in the program. I believe (not biased here!) that we will be a most outstanding group because the other students I've met thus far are incredible people. I only hope I am worthy of being their classmate!
You will realize once you start anesthesia school that you do not know half what you thought you did. Anesthesia school is a totally different animal. I thought I knew alot when I started also. You WILL BE HUMBLED! I would suggest leaving your ego at the door or you will have a very difficult time in school!
You will realize once you start anesthesia school that you do not know half what you thought you did. Anesthesia school is a totally different animal. I thought I knew alot when I started also. You WILL BE HUMBLED! I would suggest leaving your ego at the door or you will have a very difficult time in school!
For many years to come, nursing will remain an underpaid profession because of this type of debates. Very soon hospitals will start linking CRNAs and ICU experience and that will drive the CRNA salary scale. Then the next thing will be unions and so on. For all those CRNA's out there, can you kindly give us an honost assessment of the similarities between ICU RN and CRNA. I know both of them work to maintain the patients hemodynamics such as BP, HR, and airway.
I think CRNAs should be working to close the gap they have with Anesthesiologists in terms of compensation and Practice Acts. Instead of fighting to separate different levels of nurses. Until we rise above these minor arguments nursing will remain unrecognized.
Do you know the background of Physician Assistant-Anesthetist? I guess they make nearly as much as CRNAs and do the same work. Oh did I mention that they have zero ICU experience?
Do you know the background of Physician Assistant-Anesthetist? I guess they make nearly as much as CRNAs and do the same work. Oh did I mention that they have zero ICU experience?
Not all BSN programs require the same high level of science courses that PA programs do. I thought PA programs also taught the pathophys & pharmacology more in depth than nursing programs. Some nursing students will make the effort to learn more than the minimum for nursing school, but I don't think most BSN curriculums offer the same level of depth as PA programs. I'd think that would be one of the main reasons for requiring ICU experience. By working ICU awhile where they work closely with very sick patients, monitoring and treating them minute by minute, nurses can show that they have a more in depth understanding about human physiology in crisis than is shown by just having graduated from nursing school.
Neurogeek, I'm not suggesting for a moment that my critical care experience was not helpful. Just that there is so much more to everything that we could have managed patients much better if we'd known 'the rest of the story' that anesthesia school provides. And that there's a queen bee attitude in nursing that causes SOME nurses to look down on others and want to manipulate them, all out the misguided notion that they somehow know all as experienced nurses. You'll understand better what I mean about the experience when you start school. In the ICU, I sought out every learning experience, constantly took the sickest patients I could, and read about the pathophys and treatment every day when I got home. Yet I have learned more in 2 months of anesthesia school than I did in 2 yrs in the ICU. And, because backgrounds of anesthesia students vary, we are being taught much of what we were assumed to know coming in, just to make sure everyone knows it.
Not all BSN programs require the same high level of science courses that PA programs do. I thought PA programs also taught the pathophys & pharmacology more in depth than nursing programs. Some nursing students will make the effort to learn more than the minimum for nursing school, but I don't think most BSN curriculums offer the same level of depth as PA programs. I'd think that would be one of the main reasons for requiring ICU experience. By working ICU awhile where they work closely with very sick patients, monitoring and treating them minute by minute, nurses can show that they have a more in depth understanding about human physiology in crisis than is shown by just having graduated from nursing school.
Bangwa is talking about Anesthesiologist Assistants, also known as Physician Assistant type B....They are master degree anesthetists also and there programs do not require ICU experience....
Bangwa is talking about Anesthesiologist Assistants, also known as Physician Assistant type B....They are master degree anesthetists also and there programs do not require ICU experience....
According to the American Society of Anesthesiologists in regard to Anesthesiology Assistants: "qualifying student applicants must possess a baccalaureate degree and complete all of the premedical course work required by the typical American medical school. " Many BSN programs do not require the same level of prerequisite coursework that medical schools do. I do see that entering AA students wouldn't necessarily have any background in pathophys or pharmacology, but they would have a very strong math and science foundation that BSN graduates may or may not have. ICU/ED experience, then, might serve as a proxy for the math and science that many RNs to date haven't covered. Given that, though, I guess I can see why if a BSN grad DOES have the same strong math/science background of a typical pre-med student, that a CRNA program might make an exception for them.
I do have to wonder, though, as more and more look to go directly to advanced practice nursing roles such as CRNA and NP, especially with the development of direct-entry advanced practice programs and Accelerated BSN programs, if the "foundation" of nursing education (currently what's required for RN licensure) is anything much more than a hoop to jump through in order to get on with learning with the "real" stuff in a CRNA or NP program. If CRNAs and NPs don't need RN experience and in fact learn all they need to know in their program, why bother with RN training at all? I'm not being facetious, either. I personally found my RN training frustratingly shallow and felt that NCLEX-style questions test one's test-taking skills, not health related knowledge.
That's very true. I was inquiring about ICU experience requirement for Anesthesiologist Assistants.
PAs may have a lot of Patho Phys, and Anatomy, but remember in the CRNA programs you have to do Advanced Patho Phys, Pharm, and other advanced Science courses. Most Mastered prepared Anesthesiologist Assistants have BS in Biology. That means they have more human biology, but nurses with BSN have human biology (maybe not the same level) and more Pharmacology, in addition to a better appreciation of the holistic human being.
I was originally a bio major and there were significant differences in the level of science and math required for bio majors and nursing majors. There is a vast difference between the level of content covered in a one term lower division intro to o. chem and intro to micro vs. upper division o chem and micro for bio majors. Pre-med students must also take calculus and physics. Most nursing schools don't require beyond college algebra. The pharmacology course I took in nursing school was more about recognizing a wide assortment of drugs and their basic drug categories with a one or two sentence explanation of the mechanism of action and pot'l side effects - not much more depth than that.
The math/science foundation between a pre-med/bio major and a nursing school graduate who took only the required courses is quite different and I don't know if most nursing school graduates can appreciate that without having taken a those other classes. But I'll bet you start to appreciate it REAL quickly once you start a CRNA program!
(Disclaimer: I'm not saying nursing students aren't capable of that higher level coursework, just that most nursing programs (RN-level, anyway) don't REQUIRE the same degree of depth in their prequisites nor do they generally TEACH to the same degree of depth. Otherwise, it WOULD take much longer to graduate! And nursing school DOES emphasize care of the whole person across the life span.)
Edited by traumarus for clarity. - thanks! I realized some mistakes and then couldn't edit them right away!
Neurogeek, I'm not suggesting for a moment that my critical care experience was not helpful. Just that there is so much more to everything that we could have managed patients much better if we'd known 'the rest of the story' that anesthesia school provides. And that there's a queen bee attitude in nursing that causes SOME nurses to look down on others and want to manipulate them, all out the misguided notion that they somehow know all as experienced nurses. You'll understand better what I mean about the experience when you start school. In the ICU, I sought out every learning experience, constantly took the sickest patients I could, and read about the pathophys and treatment every day when I got home. Yet I have learned more in 2 months of anesthesia school than I did in 2 yrs in the ICU. And, because backgrounds of anesthesia students vary, we are being taught much of what we were assumed to know coming in, just to make sure everyone knows it.
I appreciate your input. Don't worry...I realize that I don't know ANYTHING compared to what I'm about to learn. A year ago I thought I wanted to be a CRNA, but all I knew of it was what I learned from the ICU side. So...I spent several months, 1 12-hour shift a week in the OR glued to the side of a CRNA at the level I trauma center where I worked. I realized very quickly that I really had no CLUE what being a CRNA was really all about until I started following them. It was so much more intense & wonderful than I ever imagined. I go into this knowing that I've been very humbled by that experience, and I go with an open mind. I always appreciate input from seasoned students who've walked the walk. Thanks so much & I'll keep you posted on my progress!
I only hope I am worthy of being their classmate!
jemommyRN
587 Posts
Congratulations Gump. Like someone said earlier, some people are afraid to apply because others are saying they should wait. I think it's all in the person. Yes the newer nurse may have a larger learning curve, but if they are up for it, then so be it. The anesthesia school teaches you what you need to know about anesthesia and everyday you learn in your experience. I'm sure you will be fine. Always know that there will be more conservative people who feel like you should have done it "their way", but if they are not on the interview board then it doesn't matter. I never got the impression that you felt like you know it all, only that you have a strong drive and desire to get where you want to be sooner rather than later. I'm taking notes here:) Keep your strong drive and keep your energy up. Anytime we have a CRNA to come up and intubate or start an A-line, I've never heard anyone ask "how many years were you a nurse, cause I only want experienced nurses putting in my mothers ETT". Just my one cent.