I know there has been some speculation on this board in the past about if a nurse with the bare minimum experience should (or could) go to CRNA school. Well, I just got accepted.
I graduated in July 07 with my BSN. I was in a non-health care field prior to my BSN. I immediately went to work at a large teaching hospital in a med surg ICU. I worked very hard to learn everything I could, and I feel like I am currently a very competent ICU nurse.
I have been accepted to my program of choice for fall 08, when I will have one year experience as a nurse.
Understand I am not trying to shortcut anything. I worked very hard on my school studies and my clinical experience to be well prepared. I scored very well on the GRE. I shadowed a CRNA for ~ 40 hours. I have a 3.7~3.8 GPA. I spent my own time understanding the hemodynamics of the cardiopulmonary system, the MOA/effects of different vasopressors. I work with (and understand) vents, settings, therapies.
This route is not for everybody, but I am proof that you can do it. And I feel like I am very well prepared for the program. I just want other potential candidates to know that it can be done.
So are you trying to say the Nurses with little ICU experience will command less CRNA pay when they graduate? I don't think thats right. A new CRNA is a new CRNA. No body has had CRNA experience when they graduate. As an experienced ICU nurse I know what kind of pay to expect from my potential employers, but as a CRNA I believe everybody is the same across the board.
I think jjjoy's point is that CRNA's with less ICU experience will be less marketable and will have fewer viable employment alternatives to being a CRNA. Although, I haven't heard of any CRNA that actually went back to working as a floor nurse.
Still some interesting insight.
If you really wanted to be cynical you might suggest schools are accepting less experienced ICU nurses with the hope of having some of them fail the program and have to be readmitted for additional tuition and fees. But, I think that's probably over the edge.
I think jjjoy's point is that CRNA's with less ICU experience will be less marketable and will have fewer viable employment alternatives to being a CRNA. Although, I haven't heard of any CRNA that actually went back to working as a floor nurse.
Funny, but I DID know a CRNA who went back to floor nursing. I never could figure it out either. She was probably in her late 50's to early 60's & said that it was getting difficult for her to concentrate in the OR. So obviously she made the right move, since it seemed like a safety issue. She was an awesome ICU nurse too. Some speculated that she might have gotten in some trouble & that's why she stopped practicing as a CRNA. Who knows.
By the way, up until just a few years ago several of the CRNA programs required 2 YEARS ICU to apply. I was told that TWU had that requirement and changed it to 1 year when TCU opened their program with 1 year requirement. This could just be rumor, I don't know. I did notice that in the TCU graduate catalog it states that 1 year min. is necessary to apply but that 2 years are STRONGLY RECOMMENDED. It was even highlighted this way. Food for thought.....
I think jjjoy's point is that CRNA's with less ICU experience will be less marketable and will have fewer viable employment alternatives to being a CRNA. Although, I haven't heard of any CRNA that actually went back to working as a floor nurse.
Still some interesting insight.
If you really wanted to be cynical you might suggest schools are accepting less experienced ICU nurses with the hope of having some of them fail the program and have to be readmitted for additional tuition and fees. But, I think that's probably over the edge.
I don't believe any of these last remarks to be true. The bottom line is that just like nursing, the average age of a CRNA is ever increasing. Thus, there will be many voids in the profession within the next ten years. Common sense tells you that by accepting younger students into the program, the more time to work in that role they will have. I know this will offend many people and I truly do apologize but the truth is that by excepting a student that is 45, they will be 48 when they get to the workforce. This only provides the CRNA community with an employee for around twenty years. Now, if you take a student with one year of ICU experience, they will start school around 23/24 years old and enter the workforce when they are 26/27 years old. This will provide an employer with 38 years of anesthesia care.
At times, I do wish that the more deserving person got a break in life. Unfortunately, this is just not how the world works. Health care is the biggest enterprise in the United States. To say different, you must be living under a rock. The health care community recognizes this and as a result needs to produce CRNAs that will be in the field as long as possible. A gap in capable provides would cost millions and set advanced practice nurses back fifty years in terms of respect and the autonomy we have worked so hard to build. Bottom line, they (the hospitals) would fill the gap and CRNAs would be out of work. So, it just makes sense to get an intelligent, capable person out and working as quickly as possible.
i think jjjoy's point is that crna's with less icu experience will be less marketable and will have fewer viable employment alternatives to being a crna. although, i haven't heard of any crna that actually went back to working as a floor nurse.
yes, that's what i mean. currently, crna wages are higher than those for an experienced icu nurse. but with more crnas with less floor experience, they might be more likely to accept lower wages than someone who wouldn't mind going back to the bedside if the price were right.
if you really wanted to be cynical you might suggest schools are accepting less experienced icu nurses with the hope of having some of them fail the program and have to be readmitted for additional tuition and fees. but, i think that's probably over the edge.
i don't know that the passing rate would be any lower for those with less icu experience, though i imagine those without as much icu experience would have to work harder initially and might (statistically, not individually) have a harder time making the transition from srna to crna, even if just because their colleagues might demand more of them to prove their capabilities.
Now, if you take a student with one year of ICU experience, they will start school around 23/24 years old and enter the workforce when they are 26/27 years old. This will provide an employer with 38 years of anesthesia care.
I see your point. However, how would requiring one extra year of experience prior to starting a CRNA program make any notable difference in the number of years a new young CRNA will potentially provide?
I think also maybe since bedside nursing is losing new grads SOOOOO quickly these days, the schools may also feel the need to sign CRNA students up ASAP after they get their RN or else they might leave the field completely if they expect having to put in more than a year "in the trenches"! And I don't blame new grads for not sticking it out, either, given the work conditions in many places. They don't have so much already invested in floor nursing and so want to get into something less crazy while they don't have as much to lose.
I doubt there would be a correlation between passing rate and years ICU experience, too. I was just kind of brainstorming and throwing it out there as maybe a train of thought that someone who really wanted to be cynical might follow, since you were wondering if you were being too cynical.
Frankly, I think 1 year ICU experience is plenty for a CRNA program. You learn so much new stuff in the program anyways, and you definitely get treated like you don't know anything during clinicals no matter how much prior nursing experience you have.
It is absurd to suggest that a CRNA with less RN experience would work for a lower wage or even consider going back to bedside nursing. It is insanely diffficult to get into an anesthesia program, and a great many qualified applicants are turned away. Completing a program represents an enormous investment of time, energy and money. To get admitted, an applicant must convince an admissions committee that he/she is willing to sacrifice almost anything.
I can't speak to whether it is more or less difficult to get into an anesthesia program now compared to 7 years ago, but the increase in number of programs does not tell the whole story, so if that's all the argument was based on, it lacks merit. Many programs closed in the 1970's, 80's and 90's. The schools in my area have had record numbers of applicants each of the last few years.
The issue at hand is how much critical care experience is necessary for anesthesia school. I can tell you that few people are accepted with one year of experience. A fair number are accepted with 2 years' experience if they have other strong qualifications, but of those in my class with 2 years' experience--I'm one of them--no one had other health care experience. Clearly admissions committees believe that 2 yrs is acceptable, even without other relevant experience. I looked into attrition rates, and those who can't hack it aren't preferentially the low-experience group, either. I am interested in what admissions committees, practicing CRNAs, SRNAs and especially recent grads think about this. But I'm in, and I'm doing what it takes to stay in.
How can someone who has less than one year of independent decision making taking care of critically-ill patients be so sure they've learned it all? The lack of self-awareness from many of the "nurses" posting on this thread is really shocking. By saying that you learned everything you need to know about ICU in . Sorry but you won't have virtual hugs or high-fives in the OR - only your skills and experience to get the job done.
You are going call this forum a joke because of all the ignorant people posting.
Come on now, don't be like that.
I am the original poster. I NEVER stated that I have "learned it all".
I never stated I "learned everything I need to know".
You are trying to put words in my mouth. Don't do that. I is very unbecoming, and reflects bad on you.
I also would not agree that the standards are being lowered by schools. I think they are being increased. More and more people are entering the profession, just like me. However more and more people are applying. I bet more are denied entrance to school today than ever before. There are ever increasing standards. Some schools will only take people with 2 or more years. Some make you have CCRN. I would suggest the reason for this is a means to thin the applicant pool, not because they had been turning out improper CRNA's on previous standards.
You know there are over 30,000 CRNA in the US. And according to neurogeek, about 10% had 1 year or less in the ICU. That means 3000 practicing CRNA's are not trained according to your standard. I think you should forge a petition to have these frauds removed from practice. Notify your congressmen. I mean really. You are dogging 3000 of your colleagues.
I could make an argument that anyone with a sub 1300 GRE not be allowed to apply. I could recommend anybody without a 3.8 GPA not be allowed to go to school. In my opinion, those arguments make about as much sense as your argument.
Maybe you have been exposed to subpar new nurses. Maybe it took yourself years to become a capable enough professional to become a CRNA. Don't assume the same is true for everyone.
I know several who disagree with you (including Just a CRNA). I also know an admissions board with an MDA and several CRNA's who seem to disagree with you.
You are going call this forum a joke because of all the ignorant people posting.
Come on now, don't be like that.
I am the original poster. I NEVER stated that I have "learned it all".
I never stated I "learned everything I need to know".
You are trying to put words in my mouth. Don't do that. I is very unbecoming, and reflects bad on you.
I also would not agree that the standards are being lowered by schools. I think they are being increased. More and more people are entering the profession, just like me. However more and more people are applying. I bet more are denied entrance to school today than ever before. There are ever increasing standards. Some schools will only take people with 2 or more years. Some make you have CCRN. I would suggest the reason for this is a means to thin the applicant pool, not because they had been turning out improper CRNA's on previous standards.
You know there are over 30,000 CRNA in the US. And according to neurogeek, about 10% had 1 year or less in the ICU. That means 3000 practicing CRNA's are not trained according to your standard. I think you should forge a petition to have these frauds removed from practice. Notify your congressmen. I mean really. You are dogging 3000 of your colleagues.
I could make an argument that anyone with a sub 1300 GRE not be allowed to apply. I could recommend anybody without a 3.8 GPA not be allowed to go to school. In my opinion, those arguments make about as much sense as your argument.
Maybe you have been exposed to subpar new nurses. Maybe it took yourself years to become a capable enough professional to become a CRNA. Don't assume the same is true for everyone.
I know several who disagree with you (including Just a CRNA). I also know an admissions board with an MDA and several CRNA's who seem to disagree with you.
I am going to respond to this and then I'm done with this thread and possibly this board.
#1. Don't tell me "not to be like that" and that my conduct is unbecoming only to proceed to insult me personally. You are the one who is about to bend over for the next 2.5 years, I'm done with that.
#2. I'm all for people only getting accepted with GPA's greater than 3.8 and GRE >1300. I would have been accepted under those criteria. I'm not going to even respond to your ridiculous comment about how many year it took me to become a "capable enough professional." I will say that when I was an SRNA and CRNAs/MDs asked me about my nursing background, I was proud to tell them what my experience prior to anesthesia school was.
#3. FYI...my undergrad GPA was 3.85, GRE 1360, CCRN, ACLS, PALS, code team, 5 years high acuity ICU in world class institutions, published research, professional practice, etc. Just 4.0'd anesthesia school and got the minimum number of questions on boards. Now I'm getting my a** kicked in my first job as a CRNA. The more you have to draw from, the better off you'll be.
jjjoy, LPN
2,801 Posts
Oops! double post!