I'm going to probably open a can of worms here, but I want your opinion

[dspring]

I was just at a seminar a couple of weeks ago, and the person at one of the lectures commented that they are no longer make a heparin from beef, and it is all pork heparin. This triggered something in my mind, and mad me think if this is the case, can you actually give Heparin to someone of the Jewish, of Muslim faith. Since both faiths from what I understand forbid the use of pork. One nurse I used to work with had told me in the past if I ever come in as a patient you have to use the beef based Heparin. The more I have thought about this the more it really bothers me. I want to here your opinions.

D

[dspring, RN]

Thank You everyone for you input. I didn't realize I would get quite the response that I did. I am also going to talk to one of our Dr's who is muslim, and get his opinion.

[student_girl]

The new synthetic insulin is actually produced by modified E. Coli.

http://www.littletree.com.au/dna.htm

Would this be objectionable to vegans?

Vegetarians would take it, as it does not come from a live breathing animals. Vegans, on the other hand would refuse it because we object to human use of animals, and all meds have been tested on animals. And die-hard vegans would rather lose their life than go against their beliefs.

[Spritenurse1210, BSN, RN]

good point, but if they are unconscious or need it desperately, will you have time to look for beef based heparin?

[StuNurseUP]

In response to the thought that vegans wouldn't use E.coli based things, b/c it comes from an animal...Bacteria are not in the animal kingdom,they are in thier own, just like plants are in thier own, so why would it matter? And they aren't aerobic like most animals are, they are facultative anaerobes. When do vegans stop considering something an animal? I am curious.

[wooh, BSN, RN]

Vegetarians would take it, as it does not come from a live breathing animals. Vegans, on the other hand would refuse it because we object to human use of animals, and all meds have been tested on animals. And die-hard vegans would rather lose their life than go against their beliefs.

Actually it would depend on the vegan. I would take it if I needed it. (After all, I'm not much good to the animals dead.) Until FDA rules change, if a vegan were going to refuse all meds tested on animals, there's no need to come to the hospital, they can just die at home instead.

In response to the thought that vegans wouldn't use E.coli based things, b/c it comes from an animal...Bacteria are not in the animal kingdom,they are in thier own, just like plants are in thier own, so why would it matter? And they aren't aerobic like most animals are, they are facultative anaerobes. When do vegans stop considering something an animal?

The most common place for vegans to draw the line is sentience. If they can feel pain, vegans won't eat it. So for insulin, it's not the coming from e. coli, it's the tested on animals that's the problem for most vegans.

I personally just try to do the least harm possible. I've seen a lot of vegetarians that are sticklers for following all the "rules" and then after 6 months, 2 years, a decade decide that it's just "too hard" and give it all up. I'd rather relax a little bit (I'm not going to beat myself up over the fact that I found out a restaraunt I used to frequent had been adding chicken broth to what I thought was vegan-friendly rice, I'll just stop eating it) and make it a lifetime. I'll also use meds that were tested on animals because frankly, they all were under current FDA regulations. I try to go as cruelty free as possible. I use synthetic/plant derived estrogen replacement therapy rather than Premarin because horse cruelty is unneccesary in getting me my estrogen. If I were a burn patient, don't come near me with porcine grafts, because that would freak me out.

I draw the line where I can live with myself. I've had plenty of omnivores come up to me with their reasons why I'm not "vegan enough." Well, I'm causing less cruelty to the animal world than they are, and as the world becomes more animal friendly, it will be easier to find even more animal-friendly items.

Also remember, some self-proclaimed vegans will eat fish and wear leather. One of the reasons I said earlier in the thread that patients need to define their limits, is that everyone is different where they draw their line with how they live their "label," and this is a prime example.

If you're interested in livable vegan ethics, Joanne Stepaniak is a great resource:

http://www.vegsource.com/jo/index.htm

[azhiker96, BSN, RN]

Wooh, thank you for the insights you provided in your posting.

[Camila_cmg]

Muslims (I don't know about jews) would rather eat pork than dying of hunger, so why not use the heparin?

Anyway I think we should always ask first if possible..

[whaley]

If heparin used to be made from beef, did you ask Hindus if they wanted it, because a cow to a Hindu is sacred? So pork or beef there are exactly the same issues.

[fotografe]

That is the whole debate. If you know something is (or suspect that it is) against someone's moral/ethical/religious beliefs, do you let them know the origins of the medications so they can make an informed choice?

If heparin used to be made from beef, did you ask Hindus if they wanted it, because a cow to a Hindu is sacred? So pork or beef there are exactly the same issues.

[CHATSDALE]

the pharmacy needs to be informed also of a patients restrictions..they deal with meds in a more detailed way than nurses or even doctors

allergies and personal and religious restrictions must be honor

if we were sick we might very well choose to use anything that would be beneficial to us but it should be our choice

[RN Zeke]

Seventh Day Adventist need to be informed, just as the other religions you mentioned, as SDA do not consume pork either.

SDA

Cay

[MomNRN, BSN, RN]

No one has brought this up, but at our hospital when we asked what church you were affiliated with (during the admission process), it is not so we are aware of your beliefs, it is so your church knows you are there. Of course this was before HIPPA, I don't even know if admitting asks the question anymore.

Unless the patient brings the topic up, I don't ask about their beliefs. My main concern is efficient treatment. I always inform them of what I am doing, but like another poster said, I am not a pharmacist and do not always know the origin of meds. If asked, I would find out for them.

If a form of treatment is considered offensive to them and not a possibility, they need to let me know. I do not know the ins and outs of every religion and culture. I can be sensitive if you guide me in the correct direction.