How is pain treated in your NICU? (Particularly on HFOV or SIMV)

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In my NICU the nurses are getting frustrated with docs who are resisting our push to prescribe Ativan and Morphine for little ones on vents. There is a group of docs who rotate through from a tertiary NICU nearby and they are now convinced, through research, that morphine and ativan cause brain damage. They also seem to want the little ones on HFOV to move around a bit and breath on their own too. (It used to be that they didn't want them to breathe on their own at all).

Anyhow, the problem we have (besides the docs inconsistency) is the fact that they don't share the evidence with the "dumb bedside nurse"...that's how it feels. AND they don't bother to study what alternative method they can use for the baby's terrible discomfort. We are the ones who watch them desat everytime we have to mess with them, or family visits, or it's too bright, too loud etc...We do very well with developmental support and compassionate touch, but there are limits to non-pharmaceutical interventions. Last night, when a doc denied pain meds for a baby on HFOV, the RT wryly suggested, "Why don't we intubate you and then not give you any pain meds."

We've already addressed this with our Neo Director and he's looking into it. But some of us were just curious how other NICU's were treating pain, primarily kids on vents. Please let us know.

Or if you know of specific research that shows that brain damage is directly caused by pain meds...last we heard, frequent, severe desats/hypoxia also damages tiny brains. And the O2 required to bring them up can cause ROP. Is it a lose-lose situation?

We don't consider ativan as a "Pain reliever" but generally believe it helps their discomfort by relieving "anxiety". Their innate fear does seem to agitate the babies, often resulting in an unstable kid. It's so hard to define pain in a neonate, let alone have an accurate tool to "Measure" it...don't you think?

I do agree that measurig pain in a neonate is nearly impossible. But I also believe that, micropreemies especially, can experience pain by mearly being touched and that is we are going to give them something to keep them calm (and more receptive to our treatments) thenn it should include something to block the pain receptors as well as provide sedation.

Somethng that really bothers me is that the kids in our unit rarely ever recieve narcotocs, exept with PICC placement, post-op, PPHN, or other very isolated instances. The nurses are given this pain packet to read, yet it seems like the docs should read them. Some post-ops come back with no fentanyl order and only tylenol prn. I have spoken to the nursse manager about it. The last surgical kid I saw was on a 2mcg/kg/hr gtt, but I havent seen any others to evaluate if there are any changes taking place. Our docs are so worried about addiction, they want a kid off fentanyl as soon as possible. It is very frustrating. I sort of think I should dose their pain meds post-op not by VS, but by the fact that anyone who just got reanastamosed (sp) 12 hours ago IS having pain.

Gompers, what is your fent dosing post-op if you do 2mc/kg for intubation? I always wonder if 2mcg/kg/hr is enough post op.

There is research out there that validates using fentanyl for preemie to prevent IVH, I just dont understand why our docs dont listen to it!:angryfire

Specializes in NICU.
Gompers, what is your fent dosing post-op if you do 2mc/kg for intubation? I always wonder if 2mcg/kg/hr is enough post op.

We use 2 mcg/kg per dose for procedures. For babies on vents, we start at 0.5 mcg/kg/hr. Post op, a baby automatically gets a 50% increase in pain meds if they're already on a drip - so if they're already on 2 mcg/kg/hr drip, we'll automatically go to 3 mcg/kg/hr and will increase as necessary. We use the N-PASS scale and love it. If a baby isn't on pain meds pre-op, then we decide what to do afterwards depending if they're going to stay intubated or not. If they'll be extubated soon, we'll do morphine Q4H around the clock until it's almost time to extubate. If they'll be on the vent for awhile, we'll probably start a Fentanyl drip at 1 or 2 mcg/kg/hr. If they come back from OR already extubated, we'll do Tylenol Q6H around the clock. If that doesn't seem to help, we'll go to 0.025 - 0.05 mg/kg of morphine Q4H.

OH MY GOSH!!!!

I can't believe I'm reading this.........:angryfire

How as a patient advocate, can you not relieve your pt's pain and anxiety? There are HUNDREDS of studies out there that show that neonates/preemies feel pain even in the womb. I would venture a guess that not one intubated, catheterized, cannulated, poked, pricked and prodded adult goes without pain meds and/or sedation. I have developed an IVH prevention protocol for our unit, and the latest research shows that inadequate pain control/sedation is a leading cause of germinal matrix hemorrhage/IVH. There are several Pain scales out there such as CRIES, NIPPS, PIPPS and NPASS that when properly used can diagnose pain in the critically ill neonate. Our IVH rate has decreased from 22% to about 2% among

I agree! We have a set of guidelines related to our pain-scale and with regards to gestational age!~ Our docs seem to like fent. & versed.

If they come back from OR already extubated, we'll do Tylenol Q6H around the clock. If that doesn't seem to help, we'll go to 0.025 - 0.05 mg/kg of morphine Q4H.

What kind of surgeries do you see babies coming back extubated? We have had that happen a few times and it really worries me that they werent appropriatly dosed during surgery. How can they extubate immediately after surgery if they had any narcotics on board for surgery? We had a re-anastomosis come back extubated and on tylenol. I just dont understand.

One of our clinicians said that NICUniversity has a great CUE opportunity and some great lectures on pain from a woman who has her doctorate in some sort of pain something. Might be helpful in forming protocols.

Specializes in Maternal - Child Health.
What kind of surgeries do you see babies coming back extubated? We have had that happen a few times and it really worries me that they werent appropriatly dosed during surgery. How can they extubate immediately after surgery if they had any narcotics on board for surgery? We had a re-anastomosis come back extubated and on tylenol. I just dont understand.

The only babies I've cared for who have returned from the OR extubated were VP shunt cases, and even they had orders for morphine. I don't mean to make light of respiratory depression, but these are post-op patients returning to an ICU, for Goodness sake, they are in need of REAL pain meds. If they experience respiratory depression, that can be readily treated in the ICU setting. The idea of a baby having abdominal surgery and having onlyTylenol ordered for pain is unconscionable.

Like I said, I went straight to the nursze manager the next time I worked...it has sort of been strange because she emailed me recently and said that after looking through the chart the baby was on a fentanyl gtt and tylenol....but I saw it with my own eyes and I asked the nurse who had him, and she confirmed what I saw. I am gong to email her back because that means that either an order was missed or there is something more serious going on. It is really weighing heavy on my heart. I am considering more direct actions.....

Specializes in NICU.
What kind of surgeries do you see babies coming back extubated? We have had that happen a few times and it really worries me that they werent appropriatly dosed during surgery. How can they extubate immediately after surgery if they had any narcotics on board for surgery? We had a re-anastomosis come back extubated and on tylenol. I just dont understand.

VP shunts and inguinal hernia repairs, mostly. Never a real gut surgery.

They give them Fentanyl in the OR, which wears off pretty quickly. I believe they also use pavulon as their paralytic of choice, but that can be reversed with medication. The kids do fine.

Specializes in NICU.

I can't imagine being on HFOV w/o some sort of pain medication! On our unit, whenever a baby is on the HFOV, they have Fentanyl drips ordered, usually 1-3mcg/kg/hr, depending on the situation. On our SIMV vented babies, they always have Fentanyl ordered prn. Especially on the real tiny ones - it's part of the order set for babies

Specializes in Peds, 1yr.; NICU, 15 yrs..

We use a Fentanyl drip of 1mcg/kg/hr, and titrate up as needed. We also paralyze with Vecuronium as needed for desats or agitation. I feel that any infant on HFOV needs pain med. The paralytic is up for grabs, depending on the sickness the infant. Most get at least prn .1mg/kg prn every 2-4 hours, and if they are edematous. We let them move around, unless they desat to much. We use HFOV on all sizes of babies, and use the sedation on most.

Also, if the babies are to wild, we will give a prn dose of Fentanyl. If they get more than 2-3 bolus'in a 12 hr shift, we increase the drip.

We are a level III unit with 40 beds, and see many micropremies.

I see from reading others posts, that we are not far off from others who use sedation.

Pain control is considered one of our most important measures. We have a flow sheet, where we have to document the results of any given.

Specializes in NICU, Telephone Triage.
OH MY GOSH!!!!

I can't believe I'm reading this.........:angryfire

How as a patient advocate, can you not relieve your pt's pain and anxiety? There are HUNDREDS of studies out there that show that neonates/preemies feel pain even in the womb. I would venture a guess that not one intubated, catheterized, cannulated, poked, pricked and prodded adult goes without pain meds and/or sedation. I have developed an IVH prevention protocol for our unit, and the latest research shows that inadequate pain control/sedation is a leading cause of germinal matrix hemorrhage/IVH. There are several Pain scales out there such as CRIES, NIPPS, PIPPS and NPASS that when properly used can diagnose pain in the critically ill neonate. Our IVH rate has decreased from 22% to about 2% among

I totally agree. We use Fentanyl at one hospital and MS and Ativan at another. I've seen docs not prescribing Pavulon as often, but pain/anxiety management is continuing....if it isn't, I definitely ask for it!!:uhoh3:

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