we've been having heated - but not yet angry - discussions

[IowaCindy]

regarding the provision of medical services to undocumented residents - illegal aliens. As students, we've had the opportunity this semester to have clinical experiences that include being with community nurses as they make well-baby visits to the new parents. Seems as if we've all noticed a vast percentage have been to undocumented families.

We're a divided bunch. Some of us can't afford insurance while in school and yet see these families recieving services that they can't get. We've discussed the morals of providing health care to all/any who are in need. The ever-present problems of limited budgeting. Today it was mentioned about the helicopter crash this weekend in Texas. An undocumented mother and her ill child were being flown somewhere for treatment when the helicopter went down. Pilot, mother, baby died. The nurse was critically injured.

A long-time L&D nurse at one of the local hospitals commented when I asked her what her thoughts were (she has some interesting experiences as a Peace Corp nurse in South America, a more global view of nursing than is usually seen here in the midwest) "Well, I've never had to do a drug test on an Hispanic mother, I've never had to call in family services for suspected abuse. I have done these many, many times for 'our own white trailer trash' American residents." She'd rather see the young families have a chance at a healthy start.

It's a puzzlement to me. I'm not sure how I feel about this. Much of my concern is linked to budget. I just see a greater and greater drain on an extremely overtaxed system already. If we have to limit our services - should not our own citizens recieve the first services available?

arghhhhhhhhhhhhh - these ethical discussions make my head spin sometimes. I think I know what I believe and then someone makes a good point and I have to reconsider what I have already concluded to be true.

I feel like Eeyore.... think, think, think, think, think

[fergus51]

. I bet if you went to Mexico or any other country we wouldn't get the same treatment we give here.

Actually, a lot of countries do provide care to illegals and non-citizens in hospitals. It is a broad problem affecting many countries. Believe me, we have a lot of families who aren't citizens, don't pay taxes and we still treat their children as aggressively as any others. We've even had 2 American families with kids in the unit since I've worked here. Both were just tourists and obviously didn't plan on giving birth while they were in Canada.

Again though, why aren't we looking at the source of the problem? Illegal aliens only stay because they can find work, so why aren't the people hiring them held responsible?

[unknown99, BSN, RN]

So we'll cut out the illegal aliens. Then the US citizens who can't afford insurance have to be next after all you have to be fair. Then of course the children who's parents can't afford insurance must be ousted next. Not all of use are lucky enough to get inexpensive insurance through our jobs. Trying to buy insurance outside of a job can run well into hundreds of dollars a month which is a bit much for minimum wage or less to handle. They are usually more consider about eating first. These folks don't seem to be bothering you when they are picking your strawberries, oranges, mowing your lawns and doing the other work you don't want to do yourself. The illegal aliens are only here because your giving them jobs. We keep taking about unemployment why isn't the unemployment offices forcing the unemployed citizens to do these jobs. Nobody is to blame but us. Most of all I've yet to not receive my hourly wage because I've taken care of an uninsured person. Usually these people are nice, quiet and thankful. Unlike some of the whining B!+@hing nurses I'd rather see deported.

AMEN!!!!!!!

[unknown99, BSN, RN]

Nice. I have reflected on this question quite a bit. I don't happen to agree with you. In your mind, my disagreement means I should quit being a nurse. And if I don't want to quit, the healthcare police should take away my license.

Reply by sagarcia210:

I believe you missed my point, but maybe I didn't make myself clear. I did not mean that if you disagree you should not be a nurse. What I meant, is that if one would deny healthcare/help based solely on the fact that the person was undocumented/illegal, then maybe that person should step down and let someone else help that person.

Following are some very good points taken from a website that deals with hispanic issues:

SAN FRANCISCO January 11, 2004 (NYTimes)-Imagine America without undocumented immigrants, the people who flip the burgers, clean the toilets, watch the kids and send their children to public schools.

Would the grass be greener?

The Pew Hispanic Center estimated in 2001 that the unauthorized labor force in the United States totaled 5.3 million workers, including 700,000 restaurant workers, 250,000 household employees and 620,000 construction workers. In addition, about 1.2 million of the 2.5 million wage-earning farm workers live here undocumentedly, according to a study by Philip L. Martin, a professor at the University of California at Davis who studies immigration and farm labor.

That is a whole lot of cheap labor.

Without it, fruit and vegetables would rot in fields. Toddlers in Manhattan would be without nannies. Towels at hotels in states like Florida, Texas and California would go unlaundered. Commuters at airports from Miami to Newark would be stranded as taxi cabs sat driverless. Home improvement projects across the Sun Belt would grind to a halt. And bedpans and lunch trays at nursing homes in Chicago, New York, Houston and Los Angeles would go uncollected.

While hospitals and clinics in Los Angeles County, for example, bear huge health care costs associated with uninsured undocumented immigrants - one study put the total at $340 million in 2002 - the federal government enjoys a "bonanza" from many of the same immigrants who pay federal taxes but receive no benefits in return, Mr. Yzaguirre said.

Mr. Yzaguirre suggested that Social Security would go broke without the payments of undocumented workers, many of whom, contrary to popular perception, do have regular payroll taxes deducted from their paychecks by employers. (In some instances, undocumented workers use false Social Security numbers, while others have valid numbers from when they had worked legally.)

Mr. Yzaguirre also rejected suggestions that Americans would maintain their standard of living without the low-wage contributions of those workers. He agreed with Professor Borjas that some Americans would enjoy fatter paychecks, but he said all Americans would be punished by having to pay more for everything from a McDonald's hamburger to a new house.

In a 2002 study conducted with the cooperation of immigrant rights organizations, researchers at the Center for Urban Economic Development at the University of Illinois at Chicago concluded that the 300,000 or so undocumented immigrants in Chicago did not use government benefits at a substantial rate. The study also estimated that 70 percent of the undocumented workers paid payroll taxes, like Social Security and unemployment insurance. The researchers calculated other economic benefits, finding that consumer spending by undocumented migrants generated more than 31,000 jobs and contributed $5.34 billion annually to the gross regional product in Chicago.

[unknown99, BSN, RN]

Illegal aliens as destroyers of the healthcare system is a red herring. There are a lot of ways to improve the health care system and decrease waste without denying care to illegals, we just don't want to deal with them cause it's easier to pretend it's unfixable and if the immigrants just stopped sucking the life out of the system we'd be ok.

I always found the biggest wasters of the healthcare system were American born. The irony comes when you get an American woman on assistance (always has a nice manicure too) who takes an ambulance to the hospital to deliver when she could have taken a bus, demands we feed her whole family while she's there ("Jimmy, tell the nurse to get you a samich!") and wants to take home hospital supplies ("don't you have any more diapers I can take home? What do you mean I can buy my own?") and then complains about those illegals wasting resources. Good times...

AMEN TO THAT!!!! You are so right!!!

[unknown99, BSN, RN]

I think everyone has the right to care, be it the American w/ manicure, hair done that cost over $100 (all races!), and jewelry all over there hands, w/ 5 kids and on public assitance or the immigrant who works hard (would you do the work they do with there pay so their kids can have a better chance) or just using the government. EVERYONE deserves care regardless. I hope none of the nurses treat one patient better than the other one because their status. Remember your the patient advocate not the patients judge.

AGREED!!!!!!!

[kmchugh]

Fergus, your point about illegals being the sole problem with health care in the US is well taken. I have said before, and will say again, that our system has problems that have nothing to do with immigrants. I could, at length, discuss people with "$100 manicures, cigarettes, and designer lighters" and the abuse they heap onto the healthcare system as well, but that was not the aim of the thread. Yet there would still be other problems in our health care system that I would not have addressed. However, the OP started this out as a discussion about illegal immigrants and their use/abuse of our healthcare system. Hence, the direction of my reply.

The fact is, whether it be healthcare, college educations, driver's licenses, or whatever, we are extending more rights to illegal immigrants than we citizens have. They have the right to free healthcare. They can walk into any hospital, demand treatment for any condition, and walk away, never paying a dime. And there isn't one thing anyone can currently do about it. Do I think we should deny them needed treatment? Of course not. However, when they have reached the point of stability such that they can be returned to where ever they came from to complete the treatment, that is what should happen. In short, a trip to the hospital for treatment means you are going home. Reporting of suspected illegals should be as required as it is to report suspected child abuse. Same holds true for illegals who appear to apply for a driver's license, food stamps, or any other service.

Buh Bye.

I know I sound harsh, but I just cannot help myself. I have seen these people get goods and services that my own kids will never be able to get. We must remember: No matter how nice they are, no matter how much they abide by the law, no matter how productive they are, these folks, by virtue of being here, are criminals. Period.

Buh Bye.

Kevin McHugh

[fergus51]

Kevin, I just don't see how they have more rights than an American. There are plenty of Americans demanding treatment and not paying for it. Your kids could when they grow up, but probably won't cause I don't believe you would raise them like that for a second or that they will wind up poor.

My response comes from the fact that I think we simplify the illegal immigrant problem. Are they criminals? Sure. But why are they here? Cause some cheap a$$ ba$$tard wants to have people work for slave wages. It's like drugs. You don't jail every drug user, cause there is always another to take his place, you have to go to the dealers.

Personally, I would rather deal with every bit of waste BEFORE I even entertain the notion of not providing care to anyone for any reason (and narcing on people in emerg would result in that).

[hogan4736, BSN, RN]

It seems every fast food place (in Phoenix) has illegals working there.

As well as the hotels you stay at, the hospitals you work at, and every other place...

And they are here for a myriad of resons, not just work. Some have told me they come for the free health care, or some for just a better life...

My problem is that they do it illegally...

I love being the land of opportunity, I just want ALL immigrants to do it legally...

Look at it this way:

It would be ARROGANT for me to visit Mexico, show up at a clinic, and DEMAND someone talk to me in English...

If you move here, do it legally, and assimilate!!!!!!!!!!

sean

[hock1]

Abuse a daily occurance with caucasians? Maybe because they are the MAJORITY in this country at this time? I've been blessed to live in a diverse area, different religions and ethnicities. Cultural awareness is a mandatory class for alot of corporations in my area. I've seen all sorts of nasty things in my area, all races, ethnicities, and economic backgrounds as perpertrators (spelling?). Most of the welfare, under 16 year old moms are non-caucasion. Doesn't mean that all non-caucasion are unmarried mothers, thirteen and on welfare abusing children and that whitey is perfect. It means that's the demographics of the area. Please remember that white people have feelings too. The majority of caucasions are not secretly hiding white hoods in our closets. No one group has it right yet; otherwise, when one is treated poorly people wouldn't group everybody in that persons race as a jerk. The problem isn't race. It's ignorance.

[unknown99, BSN, RN]

The problem isn't race. It's ignorance.

VHope,

You hit the nail on the head!!! That is probably the most insightful thing that

has been said in this discussion so far.

I have read all the replies to the OP, and made a few myself. I agree with a good part of them. But, I think that statement sums it up perfectly!!!

[zenman]

Posted by kmghugh: I'm sorry, but this makes no sense! Because you haven't had the opportunity to hear someone complain, we should raise our taxes to support them?

What??? Reread what I said. The first sentence stands alone. The second is my experience in Mexico.

July 22, 1946 World Health Organization comes into existence with a constitution that states: "The enjoyment of the highest attainable standard of health is one of the fundamental rights of every human being without distinction of race, religion, political belief, economic or social condition."

[zenman]

Posted by ThinkingAboutIt: Should we provide healthcare to foreign invaders? Isn't this question absurd on its face?

My Indian ancestors wish you had been around to protect against those "foreign invaders!" At least Custer got shafted!