Hazing in school

allnurses Guide · Dec 12, 2014

It's a tough lesson to learn so soon, but it's a good one.

And it's not hazing, at least how you described it.

That being said, have you identified what you might be able to do differently the next time?

Sent from my iPhone.

**NICU Guy, BSN, RN** · Dec 12, 2014

It is not hazing. When we had simulation days, the scenario was designed to test your ability to handle stress and use your critical thinking skills. The more you got behind, the more the patient's condition deteriorated because you were not fixing the problem (just like real life). It was designed to allow you to "kill" a patient without killing a real patient. You learn problem solving skills and time management. One of the 3 simulated scenarios during my last semester of med/surg clinical was a "patient" that we all knew was going to code. The simulators are fully interactive and can simulate anything that you can have in a real patient. I had taken ACLS the previous week (Spring Break) and the instructor knew it. I purposely chose that patient and several of my classmates volunteered to be on my team because they knew that it was going to be intense. My scenario was far more intensive than other groups because it took more for me to get behind and get rattled. If other groups had the same experience as I did, then it would have been hazing because there was no educational benefit for going that far. For me (and my team), it helped me push the limit as to what I can handle, so when something happens to a real patient, in a real hospital I can draw on that experience and be more in control of the situation. Granted, that was the last semester of school and not first semester, so the instructor was well aware of each student's limit and knowledge and know how far to push them and still have value to their learning experience.

Instructors need to push their students to handle stressful situations and develop critical thinking skills under pressure. Someday a patient's life may be at stake and if your instructors held your hand and sugar-coat everything during school, you are more likely to fall apart when your patient needs you to have your act together. It is not all "Nurses eating their young"

ksuheather · Dec 12, 2014

Yes, I learned that when I call a provider I'm to manipulate them into giving me the orders I want. However, I don't feel taking joy in furthering the frustration of a student is good educational practice and borders on bullying. So I will amend my original opinion to say it was bullying instead of hazing. I don't want to give too many details so as not to identify my program.

**NICU Guy, BSN, RN** · Dec 12, 2014

If you do not understand the intention of the instructor's actions, then ask them to explain it. If it was done for educational purposes and there was no malice involved, then it was intended for you to gain confidence and learn to be a patient advocate. If they truly wanted to see you suffer for no educational purpose then it was bullying. As a nurse you sometimes need to get what you want from a doctor by guiding them to the answer you want, almost to the point of making them think it was their idea.

You are not manipulating the doctor to get what you want. You need to paint the best picture for the doctor so they can understand what is going on with the patient. For example, a post-op abdominal patient is complaining of bad abdominal pain. You tell him that the patient is having abdominal pain and you feel they need to see the patient or needs an x-ray or ultrasound. The doctor is going to have choice words for you since all abdominal surgery patients will have pain. But, if you tell the doctor that the patient's B/P is dropping, tachycardia, and the abdomen is rigid. The doctor has a much clearer picture as to the urgency.

I don't want to give too many details so as not to identify my program.

It not too hard to guess that your program has the initials KSU.

mrsboots87 · Dec 12, 2014

I would not consider this bullying either. (side note: that term is used way too much for anyone who doesnt like what someone said to them). It sounds like you had a rough day, but just because the instructor told you they were intentionally pushing you harder because you became frustrated does not mean they were bullying or hazing you. It means exactly what they said. That they were intentionally pushing you harder. The sim lab is used to test a students limits in what they can handle without actually risking real patients health. If you became flustered and behind, it is used as a lesson. Maybe the instructor could have been nicer at the end, but you also could have been more prepared. In my experience, the sim labs are set up according to your experience level and where you should be at as a student nurse. For my first block, our sim labs were mostly patients who just needed med passes and therapeutic communication. There was also some kind of error like an allergy to a med, or wrong med in the pyxis, or tea colored urine such. Then in block 2, the patients were alittle more acute. We had one that developed compartment syndrome during the student care time day 1 post op. Another one kept having low O2 sats and cyanosis of the mouth. Stuff like that. Next semester we get a labor simulation and peds simulations. Last semester will be critical care simulations. Every semesters sim labs build on the last. Just brush off the negative feelings and learn from the poor experience. Look at what you could have done better and what initially got you flustered and work to not let it happen again. I have gotten flustered in sim lab in block 1 as well, and yes the instructor knew it and pushed it further to see if I could gain control of the situation or if I would get further behind and frustrated. GL

ScrubGirl88, BSN, RN · Dec 12, 2014

The instructors at my school always say we don't want to eat the young we want to teach them and mold them, however in benchmark and simulations they push you. If your feeling indifferent about what happen speak up, and don't hold it in. I have found instructors to embrace questioning, that makes a good nurse.

ksuheather · Dec 12, 2014

Nope, not KSU :-) and for a fundies Sim lab it was skills we hadn't covered. I get the pushing and putting students under stress. I own the fact that I got flustered and shut down. I also understand that in being somewhat vague I'll never get anyone to agree with me. Bottom line, I still find it bullying when a prof shows visible enjoyment in piling on frustration and says so in the post conference. At this point tomorrow is the final and it will be done.

TheNGTKingRN · Dec 12, 2014

Nope, not KSU :-) and for a fundies Sim lab it was skills we hadn't covered. I get the pushing and putting students under stress. I own the fact that I got flustered and shut down. I also understand that in being somewhat vague I'll never get anyone to agree with me. Bottom line, I still find it bullying when a prof shows visible enjoyment in piling on frustration and says so in the post conference. At this point tomorrow is the final and it will be done.

Thicken your skin! Have you NO idea what the heck you're getting yourself into? Afraid of an instructor being a tough cookie? Wait until a patient makes racial remarks, threats, or violent attempts toward you. Wait until a doctor blows up in your face and you have to defend yourself and put said doctor back in their place. You think this is tough now? You think the instructor is a big ole mean bully out to get you? You think it's ALL about you? Sorry, NO it is not - you are not a special snowflake.

Toughen up or get out.

crossfitnurse · Dec 12, 2014

What semester is this for you? I'm curious because that sounds like cake compared to some instructors I had at CLINICAL. Real life.

The other posters are right. Cry, complain, whatever and get over it and leave it at home. Why? Because no ones gonna cry and care about it, you know why? Because we all had a tough hard long ride through nursing school. Suck it up butter cup! It's gonna get better but get ready for real life. Patients and doctors aren't going to be a cake walk.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Dec 12, 2014

Thicken your skin! Have you NO idea what the heck you're getting yourself into? Afraid of an instructor being a tough cookie? Wait until a patient makes racial remarks, threats, or violent attempts toward you. Wait until a doctor blows up in your face and you have to defend yourself and put said doctor back in their place. You think this is tough now? You think the instructor is a big ole mean bully out to get you? You think it's ALL about you? Sorry, NO it is not - you are not a special snowflake.
Toughen up or get out.

I think that is harsh.

As an instructor...I am ashamed for this instructor (If she doesn't have the decency to do so for herself). I am all about developing a thick skin...

I was ornery today and the more frustrated you got the more I wanted to frustrate you

but to purposefully bait a first semester student, then gleefully gloat about it, is unprofessional and necessary.

I tell experienced nurses that when you get overwhelmed and frustrated....take your own pulse first. Meaning....take a deep breath. Analyze the situation. Regroup...LOOK at what you need. To purposefully dig at a new frustrated nursing student, or any nurse for that matter, is NOT helpful and will not help them learn. School is about learning...not humiliating and frustrating a first semester student.

OP...nursing is a tough profession and you need a thick skin. Patients, doctors, and fellow nurses will not give any slack and if they sense weakness....they are even worse.

I learned that when I call a provider I'm to manipulate them into giving me the orders I want

Technically...yes. Others can flower it with different terms but essentially you are right. You call the MD with vitals, status, lung sounds...your assessment. There are many MD's that you lead to what you want/need for the patient. There is always more than one way to skin a cat.

You will find MD's that will not order what you need bexasue the have a hair across their behind. I remember one time in ICU there was this patient who was CRAZY! with ICU psychosis. She just flipped out. She was screaming, cussing, snaking us and beating us with the call button. Yet the MD REFUSED to order anything significant to calm this patient...for whatever reason(he was usually pretty cooperative).

A new grad had this patient and she was getting her behind kicked...I finally had enough, I coached her through the phone calls at 3 am and his refusal to order anything for this poor patient. I finally went into the room and called from the power column whole she scream profanities and threatened to kill us all. When the patient saw me in her room she (in different terms than written her) told me she was going to murder me and asked who was on the phone. I told her Dr. Nomedication to which she replied (again in different words) I hope his family dies, get murdered by sunrise blah blah blah blah....and tell him he is a &(*^)*&^&*%^&$#%@&%$(*&)(&^(*&%^$#$%^&%^&(^*.

I got my order...by 6am she was a little lamb.

So yes you manipulate them or badger them until you get what the patient needs.

Now...you are responsible for material even if it wasn't "officially covered".

it was skills we hadn't covered.

If it is on the syllabus...you are responsible...even if it is youtube that helps you.

You need to work on not shutting down. Remember...take your own pulse first. Take a deep breath....say you are continuing to assess the patient and collect your thoughts. It is a game poker......never let them see you sweat.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Dec 12, 2014

MODERATOR NOTE:

While I believe that "buck up buttercup" can be applicable in some instances and that there are "snowflakes" out there...here I think when someone is asking for support we can give a boost and a hug yet still give constructive criticism and advice.