Thinking out of the box re: Nursing education

Nurses General Nursing

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a nurse attorney stated during a presentation that Associate Degree Nurses should be awarded a Bachelor's degree b/c of all the work involved in becoming an RN.

This was a EUREKA!!! moment for me.

have often thought of how much work it was to become an RN. all the assessments, writing, and care plans, etc. -- EVERY WEEK! and one to two full days each week in clinical.

i myself started out in an ADN program -- and it was a lot of work!!!

and what other professionals work THIS hard and then look forward to working weekends, holidays, summers, and rotating shifts.

and when was the last time you heard that a chemical engineer, teacher or a lawyer was sued for malpractice?

so . . . why can't the 2 year student be awarded a Bachelor's degree? (and by the way, who really completes a "2 year program" in 2 years?)

i've done some research into course requirements (and "clinical") for chemical engineers, teachers and lawyers. the total number of hours required are less than those required for nurses.

a close relative graduated law school a year ago. law school is 3 years beyond a bachelor's. the first 2 years are intense. the 3rd year is considered a "waste" by many. Some law schools are toying with the idea of doing away with that 3rd year. others are offering a doctorate degree (J.D) at the completion of the 3 years.

my point really is -- why shouldn't the degree be COMMENSURATE with the amount of WORK (again consider all the time, written assignments, care plans, clinicals, etc.) that it takes to beome an RN??

a 4 year program could award a Master's or a doctorate. WHY, given the amount of work involved in becoming an RN, should we restrict ourselves to the traditional notion of 2 years equals an ADN, and 4 years equals a BSN???

Specializes in Nursing Professional Development.

Ilg -- well-stated. but reflects the traditional view of academia. nursing is so unlike other jobs / professions. i just think we need to re-think the whole thing -- like having summer internships that count toward the degree -- and leave nothing off the table.

Thanks for not getting ugly in your response. I would like to think we can have this discussion without forcing the mods to close the thread. :wink2:

I am quite open to the idea of exploring possible radical changes to our nursing education. I just think that awarding degrees based on clinical hours alone is not the answer. As I said in my first response, I think the answer is in scaling back some of the work in the ADN programs -- taking it back to what it was originally intended for: the preparation of a safe, entry-level nurse who would return to school for a BSN if he/she wanted career advancement. They were originally meant to take 4 semesters of full time study after completion of high school (or longer if the student attended school only part time.)

If the ADN programs had stuck to that original purpose and set of expectations, we could have avoided many of the problems we have today. Everyone would know what was what and there would be fewer misunderstandings and resentments. Unfortunately, ADN programs discovered that they could add to their requirements and people would still pay come. People would still pay for the local community college ADN even if it took longer than 2 years to complete. So, they added the requirements, and made money off the students who paid to take the extra courses.

Out of pride, wanting their grads to be the best they can be, the ADN programs started squeezing in as much from the BSN programs into their programs as they could get away with. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be the best ... and for a school to want to produce the best graduates it can ... but they kept adding to the students' workload (and expense) while still offering the same "2-year" degree. I believe that trend was morally wrong and unfair to the students who keep doing more work and paying more money for a degree that is supposed to take 4 semesters. The people who should be most angry about it should be the ADN graduates who went to such programs.

But the answer is not to award academic credit for BSN courses not taken. The answer is to curtail the ADN programs. Encourage them to scale back to their original lengths and workloads so that the degree they award matches the work and expense they require.

Now as for incorporating more "experiential learning" into all types of nursing education ... I am all for that. Experiential learning is one of my favorite topics that I teach as a staff development educator. Learning how to do it well is difficult -- and it is very labor intensive and expensive to use as a teaching method. Lectures, simulations, etc. are easier and cheaper to provide. Many schools also have problems scheduling clinical time in local hospitals as it already is. That would be a real challenge for some schools. But if people can do it WELL (and not just have the time be spent in clinical without a lot of learning going on) ...then I would be all for it.

llg

I think the biggest issue with ADN vs BSN is the cost. In my mind, most anybody doing an ADN program right now is probably just as able to do a BSN program. However, ADN programs are way more affordable than BSN programs.

To me, the answer is affordable BSN programs. If somehow community colleges could be accredited to offer BSN programs (with the requisite research, etc. classes) that would help to end this issue.

Right now, BSN programs seem to cost an arm and a leg.

Oldiebutgoodie

The whole idea behind a bachelor's degree is to spend 4 years concentrating on a certain subject, but also studying other subjects to make you a well-rounded individual. These include English, History, Research, Arts, etc. All of the other bachelor's degrees spend extra time studying subjects outside of their major. That's just how the Bachelor's Degree model works. It's quite possible that engineers, accountants, etc. could be done with their schooling in 2 years if they only concentrated on their crucial classes.

So, practically speaking, the 2 yrs of just core nursing classes is probably enough to train a nurse. Two years is probably enough to train any professional, if we cut out all the extra, unrelated classes. But if we want our profession to have respect from the public, we have to follow the model of all other professions, and use the 4-yr bachelor's model. And having the extra education is not a bad thing - I do think it adds more depth to a person. But it sucks that it's expensive and not always applicable to your day-to-day job.

And yes - BSN programs are outrageously priced. Mine cost $57,000. Just my student loans are 1/3 of my income. Why don't nursing salaries keep in line with the cost of nursing school?

Specializes in Pediatrics.
of hours required are less than those required for nurses.

a close relative graduated law school a year ago. law school is 3 years beyond a bachelor's. the first 2 years are intense. the 3rd year is considered a "waste" by many. Some law schools are toying with the idea of doing away with that 3rd year. others are offering a doctorate degree (J.D) at the completion of the 3 years.

quote]

OK, I know this is a little off subject and nit-picky, but ALL LAWYERS who graduate a school of law graduate with a J.D. (Juris Doctorate). It is a doctorate-level program

Specializes in Med-Surg, Trauma, Ortho, Neuro, Cardiac.
I got not a single credit for any of my clinical work; the additional lecture time and skills lab lecture time was ALL that got additional credits. Why not recognize the academic efforts that go into those clinical assignments? And, therefore, accept that a new level of degree is long since past-due?

That's a shame. I got 9 credit hours per nursing course, because of the clinical component.

Specializes in Pediatric Pulmonology and Allergy.

Many of my patients don't even realize that nurses have to go to college nowadays. People hear the word "nurse" and automatically think "hiney-wiper," not "college grad" equipped with a brain.

Actually my perception was the opposite. Before I started looking into nursing school, I thought they needed six years of training at least! Was I shocked to learn that you could become a nurse in only two years.

Specializes in Med-Surg, Trauma, Ortho, Neuro, Cardiac.
The whole idea behind a bachelor's degree is to spend 4 years concentrating on a certain subject, but also studying other subjects to make you a well-rounded individual. These include English, History, Research, Arts, etc. All of the other bachelor's degrees spend extra time studying subjects outside of their major. That's just how the Bachelor's Degree model works. It's quite possible that engineers, accountants, etc. could be done with their schooling in 2 years if they only concentrated on their crucial classes.

Most Associate Degrees also have many non-nursing requirements in the social sciences and arts. When most of us upgrade to a BSN it's not those courses we're short on. In fact I was short a humanities course and that's it. However, I went to a christian school that required some religion courses. The courses we need are in assessment, research, community health, pahto-pharm, leadership etc. More nursing stuff.

Specializes in Med-Surg, Trauma, Ortho, Neuro, Cardiac.

I decided to look up the credit hours at St. Pete College for various associate degree programs:

Dental Hygiene - 88 hours

Physical Therapy Assistant - 74

Radiology - 77

Nursing - 72

Students here can't complain that Nursing is more credit hours than other programs. It is an NLN approved program.

I realize this is one school and can't be generalized.

I was quite surprised. All of the programs have a heavy clinical component. We could be elitist and say things like, "but we have people's lives in our hands", and "we spend much more time on care plans and our program is harder."

I think they would object to a ADN becoming a baccalaureate degree based on these kinds of arguements.

I was also waiting for someone, and it did happen, with a BSN who would resent earning their BSN in a BSN program and seeing ADN's given it. Frankly, I'm on my 15th of 18 courses needed to complete my BSN, and if they instituted something like this I too would be just a tad bit resentful. :)

Specializes in ICU, PICC Nurse, Nursing Supervisor.

Power to the Mods!!! LOL

We moderators are not going to let that happen. There are a few open threads on ADN vs. BSN and those are the only ones allowed to go on and on. This topic is a little different, and we do allow for discussions that ask specific questions. If it goes on page after page in a similar vein to existing threads, we'll close this one. If it stays on topic, no problem if it goes page after page. :rotfl:
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