religion in the workplace

[elrondaragorn]

There was a ghost story thread about posessed people dying and taunting the nurses after begging them not to let them die. It inspired the question: How many of you are religious, and do you ever offer to pray for or with a patient whose frightened of dying?

[Ophelia78]

I think part of providing culturally appropriate care is ensuring the spiritual needs of our patients are met. Whether that means referring them to the chaplain, helping them contact their own spiritual adviser, or respecting their choice not to be bothered with someone else's religious beliefs is part of our jobs. Part of culturally appropriate care as well is to be aware of our own ethnocentrism when it comes to spiritual beliefs as well as cultural ones. As someone who is in the spiritual minority (I'm a Pagan), I often find that many people are simply uneducated as to what a Pagan is. I have no doubt that if I should ever land in my ICU, my coworkers would be befuddled as to how to provide culturally appropriate care to me. Truthfully, I would like to be nicely asked. And I certainly would take offense at the idea of someone whispering their own "ritual" over me. You might say "It's the thought that counts", but when the thought is "Your religion is wrong, mine is right, and you need to be saved from your wrongness", I say no thank you.

That being said, have I ever been asked to pray with a patient? Yes. I used to work for a hospital where our chaplain was only there from 7-330 (and of course everyone died on evenings and nights!). The Catholic priest would only come in if the patient was Catholic, otherwise we were on our own. Not every patient had a home church whose minister we could call in, but many families felt the need to have some observance at death. I had a patient we withdrew treatment on and the family was distraught that no chaplain could come in to say prayers. At their request I read a psalm and said the Lord's Prayer (I was raised Catholic so I felt comfortable enough to know what to do). The family was so grateful they called my manager the next day. At other times I've had to call the local Islamic Center for advice with a death.

An excellent site that gives a very balanced description of every religion you've ever heard of, plus a few that you've haven't, is http://www.religioustolerance.org.

[elrondaragorn]

Ophelia78 said:

I think part of providing culturally appropriate care is ensuring the spiritual needs of our patients are met. Whether that means referring them to the chaplain, helping them contact their own spiritual adviser, or respecting their choice not to be bothered with someone else's religious beliefs is part of our jobs. Part of culturally appropriate care as well is to be aware of our own ethnocentrism when it comes to spiritual beliefs as well as cultural ones. As someone who is in the spiritual minority (I'm a Pagan), I often find that many people are simply uneducated as to what a Pagan is. I have no doubt that if I should ever land in my ICU, my coworkers would be befuddled as to how to provide culturally appropriate care to me. Truthfully, I would like to be nicely asked. And I certainly would take offense at the idea of someone whispering their own "ritual" over me. You might say "It's the thought that counts", but when the thought is "Your religion is wrong, mine is right, and you need to be saved from your wrongness", I say no thank you.

That being said, have I ever been asked to pray with a patient? Yes. I used to work for a hospital where our chaplain was only there from 7-330 (and of course everyone died on evenings and nights!). The Catholic priest would only come in if the patient was Catholic, otherwise we were on our own. Not every patient had a home church whose minister we could call in, but many families felt the need to have some observance at death. I had a patient we withdrew treatment on and the family was distraught that no chaplain could come in to say prayers. At their request I read a psalm and said the Lord's Prayer (I was raised Catholic so I felt comfortable enough to know what to do). The family was so grateful they called my manager the next day. At other times I've had to call the local Islamic Center for advice with a death.

Praying for someone in a way they wouldn't want is wrong. I am not suggesting violating people's free choice, but there is a difference between standing over the bed of a pagan and praying that they go to heaven in their hearing, and saying a silent prayer to yourself as you walk out of the room. Now, understandably, if someone is a practitioner of black magic, their patient isn't going to want to be cursed, even secretly, by them, but we're presuming here that the prayer being offered in silence is a further extention of the natural desire of the practitioner to help the person, rather than hurt them. Of course, its an interesting issue to bring up the fact that some people are also euthanized against their will by practitioners claiming to be trying to help them, and they try to relieve the patient's pain through the slowest most painful way to dispatch them. Disrespecting someone's prayer wishes is nothing by comparison, but a patient's wishes are most important regardless of what the practitioner thinks will be helpful

[DoveNoir]

I guess I keep it to myself unless someone asks me about it. Then I sit in my car and pray over my pts. Its my way of both letting go of my workload at the end of the day, and allowing my God to take care of them when I can't.

On the other hand...

On the oncology unit when my mother passed, all 4 of her nurses joined us in prayer over her bed. I was amazed that people who barely knew her cared that much, and I was thankful for their display of compassion above their call of duty.

[queenjean]

elrondaragorn said:

You need to re read what i wrote. I qualified that seeming contradiction down further. ... I qualifieed that seeming contradiction with an "if clause" An if clause is formulated by a statement that if a certain condition is true, then it would be helpful. That is not a contradiction. If the pagan is right and we'll all become Gods after death, then pray the pagan ritual so they aren't reincarnated as a fly and swatted. BUT If Christianity is true, then Pray God will be merciful. No contradiction there.

Well, in reading your post, there is extensive use of the word "if" and of "if clauses". Could you perhaps point me directly to the "if clause" that qualifies your contradiction? Your explanation of your rationale is what is beyond me; I actually do understand the use of the various forms of English grammar, including the subjunctive.

Perhaps what I am misinterpreting are the following quotes:

"but if one is of the same faith as the person dying, one can still ask God to help them even if the person doesn't know they are doing it. This doesn't contradict what I said about doing something contrary to the person's beliefs because many times a patient has psychological issues that prevent them from knowing what they really want (emphasis mine)."

and

"If the person doesn't believe in God, it could be a big help if they find out they were wrong when they meet him."

Maybe you could clarify what you meant; so you are saying with those statements you did not mean it is okay to pray for a person who didn't ask for it or isn't of the same religion, since as a Christian you feel that if there is actually a God (isn't this a foregone conclusion if you are Christian?), you are helping them out. Does this mean that my Wiccan daughter, should she become a nurse and is working a code, is not disrespecting a Christian such as yourself if she silently casts a spell to assist you in a peaceful transition? (as near as I can tell, the Wiccan practice of casting spells is very similar to the Christian tradition of prayer).

[chadash]

I am so careful about this, it is so important to not infringe on someones religious freedom and impose your own belief system. I can pray silently for someone and still say nothing.

The other day I fear I overstepped my bounds. A women was crying saying a family member said she had done so many horrible things she could never be forgiven. I told her God was A God of mercy, and we all needed His mercy: there was nothing he would not forgive.

I guess the cruelty of the family members comments just got me rawled up.

[gitterbug]

It is so nice to know we are all so different but so similiar. No matter our own belief system, the patient and their needs come first. Everyone who has responded to this post has been awsome. I sincerely hope everyone on this post has a blessed day, a ray of sunshine, a kind word come their way today.

[elrondaragorn]

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. If I spent my life running away from God and someone offered to pray for me, depending on why I ran, I might resent the suggestion, but a lot of people when they approach the end of their lives have second thoughts. This is what I meant by Psychological issues. If someone says no to prayer it should be respected, but if they aren't asked, they can't say yes, and problably, the nurse should call the Chaplain if a representative of the person's faith is available. Casting a spell when you know the person wouldn't like it is obviously not helping them.

queenjean said:

Well, in reading your post, there is extensive use of the word "if" and of "if clauses". Could you perhaps point me directly to the "if clause" that qualifies your contradiction? Your explanation of your rationale is what is beyond me; I actually do understand the use of the various forms of English grammar, including the subjunctive.

Perhaps what I am misinterpreting are the following quotes:

"but if one is of the same faith as the person dying, one can still ask God to help them even if the person doesn't know they are doing it. This doesn't contradict what I said about doing something contrary to the person's beliefs because many times a patient has psychological issues that prevent them from knowing what they really want (emphasis mine)."

and

"If the person doesn't believe in God, it could be a big help if they find out they were wrong when they meet him."

Maybe you could clarify what you meant; so you are saying with those statements you did not mean it is okay to pray for a person who didn't ask for it or isn't of the same religion, since as a Christian you feel that if there is actually a God (isn't this a foregone conclusion if you are Christian?), you are helping them out. Does this mean that my Wiccan daughter, should she become a nurse and is working a code, is not disrespecting a Christian such as yourself if she silently casts a spell to assist you in a peaceful transition? (as near as I can tell, the Wiccan practice of casting spells is very similar to the Christian tradition of prayer).

[caroladybelle, BSN, RN]

DoveNoir said:

On the other hand...

On the oncology unit when my mother passed, all 4 of her nurses joined us in prayer over her bed. I was amazed that people who barely knew her cared that much, and I was thankful for their display of compassion above their call of duty.

Would you have thought that they did not care "so much" if they had not had a public display of prayer?

And why does public display of prayer = compassion beyond the call of duty? If one had given you their best wishes, given truly great care, done many extras, but not participated in this public display....would they have been less "compassionate"? Or just not given any credit for any compassion.

[queenjean]

I still can't tell if we are on the same plane or not. I think maybe we actually agree on this, but then again....

Maybe *I'm* not being clear. If I come in, and I'm in a full code, let's say from a car wreck, and there is no one there to tell you that I am an athiest, is it acceptable to have the chaplin there praying over me? What if you *do* know I'm an athiest, does that change the acceptability of having a chaplin pray over me? In either of these situations, is it okay for the nurse to silently pray for me?

I guess we can't police thoughts; if I'm coding and you offer up a silent prayer, something like "Please God let this chick live," what skin off my back is it? But I think it would be disrespectful to offer up a little prayer like, "Please God, forgive this woman of her sins and accept her soul into your kingdom." or something like that. To me there is a difference, somehow. Does anyone else see any difference, or am I being a freak (which, I will admit, is a fairly strong possibility)? One seems like more of a general request, almost as much or more for the nurse than for the patient; the other seems like, I don't know, trying to get one more soul for the Kingdom of Heaven, you know?

However, if it IS okay to silently pray over someone, whether you know their religion or not, whether they give you permission or not; if it is okay to do that in a Christian way, it is okay to do it in *any* religious way. If it is okay for you, as a Christian, to offer up a silent prayer for me when I come in to the ER in full code, it is okay for a pagan nurse to offer up a silent prayer to her own goddess in the same situation. Does that sound right to you, to anyone out there? And I don't know; *IS* it okay to do that? What is wrong with it? What harm does it do anyone, to offer up a silent prayer to whomever? Can we solve the great questions of spirituality on allnurses.com?

Seriously, though, it does seem like there is a difference to me, praying for someone to be okay, and requesting that a God or Goddess accept your soul into his/her fold. I can't really articulate *why* there seems to be a difference to me; but I do feel that way.

[jojotoo, RN]

As a Christian, I would welcome Christian prayers during a time of crisis - aloud or silent.

As a Christian, non-verbal non-Christian prayers would have no impact on me whatsoever, whether they are Muslim. Hindu, pagan, etc. But if they are verbal, this would distress me because (in my mind) this would imply acceptance (even if only passive) of a contradiction of one of the basic tenets of my faith: Thou shall have no gods before Me.

[Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP]

queenjean said:

Seriously, though, it does seem like there is a difference to me, praying for someone to be okay, and requesting that a God or Goddess accept your soul into his/her fold. I can't really articulate *why* there seems to be a difference to me; but I do feel that way.

Although we have different beliefs, I understand your point and have thought about it myself. This is what I have worked out: if someone is coding, I pray A LOT. Sometimes it's a prayer for myself, that I know what to do, sometimes it's a prayer for the family member who is crying in the hallway, sometimes it's for the patient to breathe again, and sometimes it's for that ICU bed to be ready 5 minutes ago!

What I believe is that I can't pray anyone into heaven, because my prayers aren't what entrance into heaven is based on. I can pray for a person to find his/her peace with God. I can pray for them to be comfortable when the end is near. I talk to God like He is my friend.

Personally, I wouldn't be offended if, say, a follower of Hinduism decided to pray for me without my knowing about it at the time. Whether or not I believe the same thing as them (I don't), the fact that they care enough about me to mention me in their prayers means something to me. I may not even think the prayer will do any good, but again, they cared, which is what is meaningful to me.

I don't know everything and don't have it all worked out. I don't know anyone who does. I imagine that, like you said, queenjean, allnurses.com is probably not the be-all & end-all for spiritual questions. But I am enjoying this thread.

[TazziRN, RN]

Arwen_U said:

Personally, I wouldn't be offended if, say, a follower of Hinduism decided to pray for me without my knowing about it at the time. Whether or not I believe the same thing as them (I don't), the fact that they care enough about me to mention me in their prayers means something to me. I may not even think the prayer will do any good, but again, they cared, which is what is meaningful to me.

Thank you for putting your head on the block this time!