religion in the workplace

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There was a ghost story thread about posessed people dying and taunting the nurses after begging them not to let them die. It inspired the question: How many of you are religious, and do you ever offer to pray for or with a patient whose frightened of dying?

Statistically, there are no athiests in foxholes-when someone is facing the ultimate crisis of possibly dying they tend to want and even welcome prayer. I know of one priest who says he gets a jewish person on Ash Wednesdays who recieves ashes. When asked why he says she responds: "couldn't hurt." He says that people of other faith and even athiests treat him with reverence and respect and welcome any sincere move on his part to show he cares. Granted, not everryone is like that, but I wonder why some people don't mind a sincere gesture from someone who isn't of their faith and others bitterly resent it, to the point, in some cases of taking court action?

On the other hand, if you see it as weak vs. powerful and not I'm in a position to help you for your sake and not my ego, aren't you judging the person helping you unfairly?

queenjean said:
Here's my honest answer: I wouldn't call it *offended*, but I think that I would be annoyed.

When one of my patients says, "God Bless you, you've been so good to me," or "I'll say a prayer for you tonight, you're like my guardian angel," I smile and thank them, and take it as I feel it is meant, a very sincere thank you and well-wishing. If someone who has a position of power over me or who is in someway in charge of me tells me they are praying for me, I think my initial reaction is "Forget the freakin prayer, concentrate on my O2 sats instead!!!! Am I in church or the hospital here!?!?" Even though I am 100% positive that your intent and sentiments are the exact same as my previous example of my patients, I honestly would still find it annoying and somehow inappropriate. Not that you cared for me, but that you stated it in that way. I'm not sure that is the most mature response; but I'm being honest here.

I think it has something to do with the position we are in; are we the weak, helpless ones, dependent on someone else; or are we the ones with the power, helping someone who has not much choice but to accept our help? Does that make sense?

Any other athiests or people from non-dominant religions out there care to weigh in?

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Specializes in Community, OB, Nursery.

I continue to be fascinated by this discussion. I don't have anything to add right now, only the previous sentence.

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My attitude about prayer from ANY religious affiliation: can't hurt, might help. I wouldn't care if a Jew or a Muslim or a Buddhist prayed over me, they are praying to their higher power for my well-being. That they care enough to do that means the world to me. A Muslim cannot say a Christian prayer because he doesn't know any, so he uses a Muslim prayer instead. Fine with me.

I remember reading somewhere once, long ago, that we all pray to the same Higher Power, we just have different names for Him.

For an athiest to be offended that someone prayed over him/her sounds like a waste of energy to me. If you truly do not believe in God and you found out that in your darkest hour I said a prayer for you because I didn't know you were athiest, what does that matter? It didn't hurt you, did it?

It would be very different if I were standing at your bedside imploring you to accept God into your heart or you will forever burn in the fires of Hell....that's not prayer, that's conversion, and that is very wrong.

I have baptized fetuses that were aborted in the ER, after asking Mom if she wanted it done. I am not Catholic but I know how important it is to Catholics. (And before anyone jumps on me, a priest himself told me it doesn't matter who does it in an emergency, as long as it gets done.) I do it with good intentions and it has never been resented.

I know I'm rambling but I'm having trouble keeping my thoughts straight.

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Specializes in ICU;CCU;Telemetry;L&D;Hospice;ER/Trauma;.

Isn't it sad, that one person cannot hold the hand of another when in crisis, and say a prayer, for fear of being sued???? How pathetic is it when our world is so quick to find offense at every turn, and totally mis-cue the motive and intent of the pray-er.

Prayer isn't so much a "telephone call" to God, to tell Him what to do....or what needs doing.....it's a conduit that allows many to unite as one in a common goal or desire.

Many patients have asked me to pray for them....sometimes it was just in the pleading look in their eyes, and I returned the "knowing" look that I would do all I could to comfort and ease them. Sometimes, they have asked me to have the priest come by and annoint them. Some have just wanted another human being in the room with them, because they didn't want to die or be sick all alone.

Recently, a patient of mine asked, "Could you ask the priest to come by and give me the ointment of the sick?" (he meant annointing of the sick).

If only we could just squeeze it out of a tube, and rub it into our patients!!

While I can appreciate that many people are not comfortable with religious issues, or spiritual issues while in the health care setting, we have to admit to ourselves that we are, after all, spiritual beings as well. Part of healing is inclusionary of this part of ourselves. Just because we may not embrace the same "religion" that our patient/s embrace, should not impair us as health care providers in assisting them when they or their family request.

I would never turn my back on a patient whether it was asking me for a bedpan, or asking me to pray with them....as a nurse, it's my job, my calling, my purpose, to treat the WHOLE person.

What this may boil down to is just being socially sensitive. Patients really appreciate honesty,and they will more times than not, express their needs clearly, when asked.

If they aren't able to speak for themselves, and they don't have a family member avail. I would like to think, that maybe we are all part of the human family, afterall, and what would be offensive by silently praying for that wounded vulnerable one lying there?

jmo.

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I think I don't have any problem with the silent prayer; you put it very well, Tazzi: "I wouldn't care if a Jew or a Muslim or a Buddhist prayed over me, they are praying to their higher power for my well-being. That they care enough to do that means the world to me. A Muslim cannot say a Christian prayer because he doesn't know any, so he uses a Muslim prayer instead. Fine with me." This makes sense to me.

What I don't like is the attitude that I"m not Christian (or Muslim, or Jewish) because I just don't know any better yet, or haven't had anything bad enough happen to me yet, and when I do finally have this epiphany, I'll appreciate that some Christian (or Muslim or Jew or whoever) was there to pick up the slack. That the prayer is for my own good, not for my well-being.

And offering to pray for someone whose religious faith or persuasion you know nothing about; some might find that comforting; some might find it discomforting, and therefore you are causing them more, not less, discomfort. Why not say the *silent* prayer, and then when you find out they are also Christian/Jewish/Wiccan/Pagan/Whatever, you can share that moment of prayer with them?

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Specializes in Community, OB, Nursery.

Most Christians I know don't pray for someone (Christian or not) so as to be condescending, like a "Zap 'em, Jesus!" kind of prayer. They pray because they care and because they (we, I guess I should say) truly believe that God cares too, that He listens. I don't understand God completely all the time, I don't understand why He says yes to some prayers and no to others. But there is a Jewish saying that I like: If we could understand God completely, then He wouldn't be God. And I really don't think He minds if we question Him honestly, to be frank.

Back to the point....Christians tell others about Christ because that's what we have been commanded to do. It's not about "Oh, you poor dying wretch, let me tell you what to do about your miserable situation because you obviously aren't smart enough to see the light without me telling you about it." If Christians see themselves rightly before God, they see themselves as miserable wretches. I know I am in comparison to God. I talk about what Jesus has done for me because I know the difference He has made in my life. It's not up to me to 'convince' anyone, or argue until they 'see the error of their ways.'

FTR, most of the praying I do for others is silent, anyway. I remember one time asking my dad why he didn't talk so I could hear him when he prayed; his answer was "Well, I wasn't talking to you." That's kind of the philosophy I use too.

Again, I'm not trying to be holier than anyone here; God knows I'm not, by any means. I'm just trying to explain (to the best of my capacity) why we as Christians (or maybe just me) do what we do.

Once again, enjoying this thread.

*steps down from the soapbox*

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Whether or not prayer helps is not the question. Some people believe there are things called demons that other people may pray to, not knowing they are being decieved into thinking they are praying to a benevolent being. Such a patient believes that even if a person who prayed to such a demon to help them, they will be spiritually harmed. The person doing the praying may not believe they are being decieved, may think the patient's concern is ridiculous, and unfortunately, in todays world, too many people have been taught that there are no absolute truths. Consenquently, if there are no absolute truths and some yoga master insists fire can't hurt you, I don't think you'd want that person as your doctor. It is however possible to know there are absolute truths, what they are, and that there is good and evil (I'd be happy to explain further but I'd have to start a philosophy thread in the off topics section) Too make a long story short, though, if someone knows that something is good for someone, such as excercise, for example, they would be disrespectful by forcing the person to get excecise, but if they persist in encouraging this behavior, the patient will feel much better. If there are scientific truths that can be known, there are moral and spiritual truths that can also be known, and if I as your patient know your prayer will harm me, I don't want you to say that prayer!

TazziRN said:
My attitude about prayer from ANY religious affiliation: can't hurt, might help. I wouldn't care if a Jew or a Muslim or a Buddhist prayed over me, they are praying to their higher power for my well-being. That they care enough to do that means the world to me. A Muslim cannot say a Christian prayer because he doesn't know any, so he uses a Muslim prayer instead. Fine with me.

I remember reading somewhere once, long ago, that we all pray to the same Higher Power, we just have different names for Him.

For an athiest to be offended that someone prayed over him/her sounds like a waste of energy to me. If you truly do not believe in God and you found out that in your darkest hour I said a prayer for you because I didn't know you were athiest, what does that matter? It didn't hurt you, did it?

It would be very different if I were standing at your bedside imploring you to accept God into your heart or you will forever burn in the fires of Hell....that's not prayer, that's conversion, and that is very wrong.

I have baptized fetuses that were aborted in the ER, after asking Mom if she wanted it done. I am not Catholic but I know how important it is to Catholics. (And before anyone jumps on me, a priest himself told me it doesn't matter who does it in an emergency, as long as it gets done.) I do it with good intentions and it has never been resented.

I know I'm rambling but I'm having trouble keeping my thoughts straight.

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queenjean said:
Mind showing me that statistic?

My point is that if you ask people who have had to deal with people in crisis situations e.g. military, hospitals, accident scenes, any honest professional in those situations will tell you that there is an amazing tendency to become religious as one is threatened with death. This doesn't apply to everyone, but (it didn't happen to the posessed man floating over his bed mocking nurses for letting him die in the ghost story thread), but many more than not become very religious when they come to terms with the final journey they will be making

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Specializes in Community, OB, Nursery.
elrondaragorn said:
My point is that if you ask people who have had to deal with people in crisis situations e.g. military, hospitals, accident scenes, any honest professional in those situations will tell you that there is an amazing tendency to become religious as one is threatened with death. This doesn't apply to everyone, but (it didn't happen to the posessed man floating over his bed mocking nurses for letting him die in the ghost story thread), but many more than not become very religious when they come to terms with the final journey they will be making

I do seem to remember that church attendance skyrocketed and religious books of all sorts flew off the shelves in the weeks following 9/11/01.

I am not using that as an argument one way or the other, just saying that I think it's human nature to want to search for some meaning in crisis situations, or maybe people want to make sure they have their ducks in a row.

There are people of all faiths who don't pray regularly until they're sick, or someone they love is sick, or someone loses a job, or something. This goes for Christians too.

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Specializes in Oncology/Haemetology/HIV.
elrondaragorn said:
Statistically, there are no athiests in foxholes-when someone is facing the ultimate crisis of possibly dying they tend to want and even welcome prayer.

Not necessarily and I, too would like to see that stat.

I have known people that blamed G-d and angry at the Creator when facing crises.

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Specializes in Oncology/Haemetology/HIV.
elrondaragorn said:
My point is that if you ask people who have had to deal with people in crisis situations e.g. military, hospitals, accident scenes, any honest professional in those situations will tell you that there is an amazing tendency to become religious as one is threatened with death. This doesn't apply to everyone, but (it didn't happen to the posessed man floating over his bed mocking nurses for letting him die in the ghost story thread), but many more than not become very religious when they come to terms with the final journey they will be making

Again, show us the evidence that "any honest professional will tell you".

I have dealt with plenty of crisis situations. There are plenty of people driven away from faith as well as to faith at times of crisis

You also have to wonder about the Faith from crisis types. Many of them will return to their "precrisis" ways within a short period of time. Thus how honest is this "crisis" Faith?????

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In most admit papers they will ask the patient if they would like a chaplain to come in to see them . Many will ask a if you want a religious preference listed on your papers..I have never seen a 'pushy' chaplain if they are called in they usually respond

I do not believe that a prayer for person who has rejected faith in their lives will have any affect on their after life...This is a decisoion that an adult must make for themselves

I have had patients, co-workers and friends of all different faiths and non-faiths liked most of them

Live your faith so that everyone you meet will want to share it with you

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