LPNs in ICU

Nurses General Nursing

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Our hospital recently brought LPNs into ICU, and we are having some trouble adjusting to the change. They were brought in to our units because we have lost so many RNs recently, and have not been able to replace them. Please don't think I am putting LPNS down, I am not. I was an LPN for four years before I was an RN, and I have a great deal of respect for them. The two that have come in to the unit are sweet wonderful girls with a lot of knowledge and they work very hard. The real problem is the limitations placed on them In our state LPNs are not allowed to give IV pushes, hang blood, or hang and titrate drips. They cannot measure hemodynamics, and cannot take verbal orders from a physician. So an RN must do all of these tasks for them, as well as take on a full patient load of her own. The LPNs get very frustrated too when they need something done for their patient and the RN who is supposed to be covering her can't get away from her own patient to handle a problem. We have tried to have an LPN and an RN share four patients, with the LPN doing meds and treatments, and the RN doing assessments, drips and the like, but this has not worked out either. To make matters worse, some of the RNs are hostile to the LPNs, and give them a hard time. Most of us have been supportive of them, but a small number of the RNs have made things difficult in numerous ways. Most of it is very subtle, and is difficult to take anything specific to our unit manager. A few of the docs have also expressed discomfort with the LPNs being in a critical care area. Again, I am not complaining about the LPNs, I am just looking for some feedback and advise on ways to organize care and make this situation a little easier on everyone.

Originally posted by Brownms46

RNinICU...this is a very bad situation all around! What kinds of pts. are the LPNs given, and what is the background of those working in the unit? What state are you in? Are the restrictions placed on the LPNs required by the state, or the hospital? :confused:

The LPNs get the same kind of patients the RNs do, except for post op heart, CVVH, and IABPs. One has years of telemetry experience, and the other one year of med-surg. The restrictions are placed by the state. According to our nurse practice act, LPNs cannot hang blood, hang any IVs other than maintenance fluids and piggyback meds, titrate drips, measure hemodynamics, give IV push meds, take verbal orders, or sign off orders. We had LPNs in the unit 15 years ago and phased them out because our patients acuity was increasing, and they were too restricted. Now with the shortage of RNs they were brought back in because our RNs are leaving faster than they can be replaced. It's not as much of a problem when we have patients with lower acuity, but there are some nights when I feel like I am drowning. Our unit manager has met with our DON several times over this and other staffing issues, but gets nowhere. The DON tries to turn it into an RN vs LPN thing, but it's not that. These two LPNs are nice girls who work hard, but are restricted in what they can do.

Originally posted by mattsmom81

Las Vegas, gotta disagree with your comment completely...this is not about how bad you WANT it to work at all. Luv ya anyway. :)

It's okay - I would not work on a unit expecting me to take 4 ICU patient's either. We took 2 at the most. I can only speak from my experience in working with the LPN in our ICU. It worked beautifully, but we may have been the exception, and again, this was a pilot program implemented 10 years ago. All I'm saying is that it can and has worked before.

Just my $0.02 :)

The few times I was pulled to ICU, I was like a helper to the RN. I gave her PO meds, I did all of the treatments, trach care, vs, tallied up I&O's, helped her with pt care and they appreciated that I was there to give them a helping hand. They taught me alot of things I didn't know & I appreciated the fact that everytime I went there I learned new things and I always thanked them for it. I know my scope of practice and for those gals I only wished I was able to have done more for them.

Specializes in Everything except surgery.

WOW....RNinICU...that's too much restrictions in my view to allow for safe care! Now let me get this straight...they can or can't do anything but hang maintaince flds? Or can they also hang IVPB? And what is the usual acurity in your unit? And exactly what state are you in? I find it very difficult to understand how the hospital decided that an LPN can't be trusted to take verbals orders or sign orders off...but can care for critical care pts! :confused:

Specializes in Everything except surgery.

No thanks needed here mattsmom...this is a no brainer!

And LasVegasRN..."I" totally agree that LPNs can, and do work well in ICUs.... but not with all those restrictions, in today's higher acurity units! Ten years ago...Critical care was a different animal!

And niteowl..I'm sure those nurses saw you as being a lifesaver! :) But from what I read in your post...those where RNs with their own assignments, not RNs covering your pts, and their pts also!

Now I'm an LP/VN, and I'm totally with us being in critical care...but only where the practice act allows us to perform the skills needs in those units! And where LPNs have taken critical care courses, or have that experience, and knowledge! But in the state RNinICU is describing...I see the LPNs there as being in a situation where they're performing as nothing more than "glorified aides" already! If they can't take verbal orders, than the RNs are having the call the MDs, and they can't titrate drips..then the RNs are actually the ones managing the pts! And that to me is very scary...when the acurity is high, and you're having to measure/monitor the hemo on your pts, do the IVPs...and God knows what else!

Am I wrong...or did I miss something??

RNinICU...are the LPNs allowed to access Central/Art or PICC lines? Do they draw blood/ABGs, start IVs, do assessments, EKGS...read strips?? I mean what can they do???

Originally posted by Brownms46

And LasVegasRN..."I" totally agree that LPNs can, and do work well in ICUs.... but not with all those restrictions, in today's higher acurity units! Ten years ago...Critical care was a different animal!

Boy, you aren't kidding! And I don't have a way of finding out if that pilot program is still in existence today. Wish I knew so I could contribute more to this thread. :cool:

Specializes in Everything except surgery.

No problem here LasVegasRN...you're input is always well received with me..:cool:!

Originally posted by Brownms46

RNinICU...are the LPNs allowed to access Central/Art or PICC lines? Do they draw blood/ABGs, start IVs, do assessments, EKGS...read strips?? I mean what can they do???

They can and do perform all of these tasks. They can hang maintenance fluids as long as the concentration of KCL is less than 40 mEq/L, and they can hang replacement bags of heparin, but cannot initiate heparin therapy. They attended the same Critical Care Course as the RNs, but are still not allowed to perform some of the tasks they learned there, such as hemodynamics. They can give all PO, SC, and IM meds They can insert foley catheters, but not NG tubes, although thay can give meds through them. They can suction and perform trach care, but not make any vent changes. They can assess their patients, but our hospital does not allow them to do the admission paperwork.

We have a similar situation in the ED where I work; the charge nurse has to co-sign LPN's charts, cover meds that can't be given. Assignments have to be adjusted because LPN's are limited BY HOSPITAL POLICY as to type of pts. they can take, so the RN staff has to take the more critical pts. Despite the conditions placed on the LPN's practice, the LPN still counts in the staffing matrix as a full nurse.

It can get very frustrating. I certainly appreciate the talents everyone brings to the table, so to speak, but it's just getting to be too much lately, trying to keep your head above water with pt assignments, charge, handling the docs, and picking up the work that someone else can't do because of limitations in that person's nurse practice act.

RNinICU: I can sympathize with you.

I know this is cliche, but this business of asking the RN to accept more and more responsibility on her license is another reason for the shortage.....it's getting scarier and scarier out there.....the ICU patients I cared for 10 years ago are now on PCU...rule out and uncomplicated MI's and dysrhythmias like nonsustained Vtach and heart block don't come to ICU much anymore...they now go to PCU with a 4:1 patient nurse ratio in my facility. Any nontitrating drip can go to PCU too...

There's been plenty of nights I've been SO VERY thankful to have a medsurg nurse brave enough to help me in ICU in a pinch!! Like those rare nights when there's nobody else available on call, and there's a late sick call nurse, etc...if there was a less complicated patient I could help her with and still supervise the rest of the staff, I'd grumble but make it work.

Because it was an unusual situation, we all made the best of it, and we're glad to' punt'... occasionally....but it's the idea that RNinICU and Fab4Fan are being expected to stretch themselves day after day like this that disturbs me. I'm hearing more and more of this.

And I can visualize what will happen if things start going bad...it all falls on the charge nurse's head...I've been there. :(

I'm so thankful my LPN coworkers are so self sufficient and don't have such restrictions placed on them.!! I could not imagine working in RNinICU's situation with the acuities she describes, with the limits imposed on her coworkers.

No doubt the LPN's are as frustrated as the RN's.....I'm sure they WANT to do more and are CAPABLE of much more....but are being held back by state and facility. :((which is a whole 'nuther another thread topic, right??) :(

God bless ya'll!!!

Specializes in Everything except surgery.

I can sympathize with you both. But need to clarify...that although the practice act in many states, may limit what LPNs can or can't do....many times it is NOT that state's practice act, that limits the LPNs...but the hospitals themselves!

I have read many practices acts, that don't place half the limits on LPNs that the hospitals try and make you believe!

I think more RNs need to start advocating for themselves with administration....and stop making the LPNs the scapegoat for their being overwhelmed! Counting an LPN as the same as an RN in settings where they're so restricted is totally stupid!

And LPNs who don't see the problem with them being counted the same as RNs in these settings....are walking around with their eyes closed...IMHO! In plain english...if you can't do half the skills needed...then you need to be willing to try something else...to help the RNs their working with! But in NO way should the LPNs feel guilty or at fault for what administrated dictates!

Instead of focusing on what LPNs can't do...look at what they can do. If you're not ready to lay the buck at the door of those making the decisions...then you have two choices. Figure out a way for LPNs to utilize the skills they can do, and a way for the RNs to receive a break in what they're responsible for. Or you can pick up your cookies and play elsewhere! I think if enough folks put their foot down, as to how much their going to allow themselves to be abused...management will get the idea...especially if it means closing a few beds...and going on divert!!

As for me...I steer clear of places like this!

I wish you all the best out there....in dealing with some really challenging problems..:cool:

Well balanced post Brownie....well said! :)

One thing we did in our ICU was to create specific UNIT BASED policies....so that our competent LPN's could practice to the limits of their skills ...unencumbered. We all LOVED it!

Funny thing...when our LPN's floated out to the general floors...THEN they were restricted by THAT unit's policy and hospital general policy, which did not allow them to spike blood, or do the admission asessment, and a few other silly things...

Perhaps this is something to explore with your unit manager, RN inICU....a unit specific policy allowing the competent ICU trained LPN to assume more duties than other areas of the hospital...a 'special' policy just for ICU...worked well for us. :)

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