Artificial feeding-Terri Schiavo

jeepgirl, LPN, NP · Mar 20, 2005

The ironic part of this is that he won't have a red cent left over. The vast majority of the $1 million was spend on her care for the past 15 years. Come on people, we know what healthcare costs don't we?

the vast majority of the costs were Schiavo's legal fees... approved by the judge, nontheless.

www.terrisfight.org

LydiaNN · Mar 20, 2005

I don't think whether Terri Schiavo lives or dies should hang on how much her care costs taxpayers. I never think that, when life or death cases are being debated. I'm also not sure that I would have supported the insertion of the feeding tube when that fight was being fought. I don't believe she ever had any hope of recovery, and if it had been someone I loved, my decision would have been to let them die. That wasn't the decision that was made for Terri, though. The decision was made to let her live, and once it was made, it should have extended until she dies on her own. It isn't that I would never support assisted suicide, as long as the decision was made by the patient. How can we believe what Michael Schiavo says, though? His motives are far too suspect, and they are contradicted by Terri's demonstrated devotion to her religion while she was alive. It isn't that I don't think a husband should be considered the next of kin when it comes to making important decisions that stay within the law. It is that I don't understand how this decision falls within the law. This action will kill her. To me, that shouldn't be a decision anyone gets to make.

Boston1 · Mar 20, 2005

thank you.

"when i woke up..."
by rus cooper-dowda
the following is a meditation by rus cooper-dowda delivered at the
st. petersburg, fl. vigil held for terri schiavo.
in february of 1985, i woke up in a hospital bed in boston, ma. i
couldn't see very well and i couldn't move much -- but boy could i
ever hear!
rus cooper-dowda
i heard a terrifying discussion then that i will never, ever forget.
around the end of my bed were a "school" of doctors in their white
coats, planning when to disconnect my ventilator and feeding tube. i
immediately started screaming, "i'm here!!" no one but me heard me.
they did notice my sudden agitation. they heavily sedated me. for a
time, everytime i woke up i would make as much noise and move as a
much as i could to show them i was "in there."
and they would, in response, heavily sedate me...
i then started spelling the same word in the air, "don't! don't!
don't!...."
the doctors decided that the letters i was spelling in the air were
repetitive seizure activity and just happened to occur most often
when they were in my room discussing killing me...i even took to
writing them backwards to make it easy for them to read...
and their response was to sedate me even more....
but, the nursing staff began to believe i was really and truly with
them.
one, in particular, starting bringing in a clip board and a broken
pen when she talked to me. she would put ink on my fingers, the clip
board under my right hand and then ask me yes and no questions in
the beginning.
with her i secretly progressed to answering in sentence fragments.
however, by doctor's orders she was not allowed to document in my
file what she was doing and that i was giving meaningful responses.
but...she did save my inky answer sheets and recorded the questions
she asked. she got into a lot of trouble for that.
yet, it earned me a final conference where the doctors had to prove
to the nursing staff for political reasons that all my communication
was just agitation and seizures.
at that meeting, my then husband, who was a doctor siding with the
other doctors who wanted to let me die, held that clipboard which
was my lifeline up in the air in front of me. he was not going to
make it easy.
the purpose was to prove that the nurses were basically
hallucinating and that i was really and truly brain-dead.
to prove i could not communicate, he then put ink on my fingers and
asked while laughing, "there isn't anything you want to tell us, is
there?"
in response i spelled out, "d-i-v-o-r-c-e y-o-u!" the laughter got
very nervous then. the doctors called for medication because i was
obviously having a sezure.
then the nurse who used the board first with me said, "let me try"
and "what do you need to tell us today?"
i spelled out, "d-i-v-o-r-c-e h-i-m!!!!"
there was never a questions after that about whether i was "in
there' or not.
then they said i couldn't breath on my own -- and i could. then they
said i couldn't learn to eat again on my own -- and i did. then they
said therapy wasn't important -- and it was. then they said i would
be dead within a year -- in 1985 -- this is 2003...
they also said i would never have meaningful mental function again --
yet i earned another master's degree only a few years later.
here's the real medical corker though -- they also said at the time
that i was permanently sterile. that was a cause of great grief for
me then as i had very much wanted to bear and raise a child.
but, it turned out my son, who is here at this service today, was
born at the end of that year.
it turned out that i was actually pregnant at the very moment they
were telling me i was sterile -- a simple test at the time could
have established that.
a test they didn't think they needed to do -- so they didn't.
my point is that the medical and legal staff of that world-renown
hospital were wrong and didn't listen and made startling assumptions
about the quality of life for the disabled community i had joined.
in their eyes, i only had two options then -- full recovery and a
lovely hospice death. i did spend time in a hospice against my will
fighting to get to my ob-gyn appointments -- but that is the stuff
of another story. leave it to say that it was beyond them that most
of us -- especially the disabled community -- live full lives in
between physical perfection and death.
to borrow a current phase, we are here today because of that "middle
earth." i live there as does terri, all other people with
disabilities, their familiy, supporters and friends.
even those doctors who were so sure max and i could not possibly be
here today will live in that land between perfect health and death
if they last long enough -- that is, if they don't do themselves in
out of fear that someone else will have to help them someday. then
will they ever be surprized at how much love and joy and life there
is for the asking in that "middle earth" of the disabled
community....
and therefore how much love and joy and life there is to celebrate
here today...

CseMgr1, ASN, RN · Mar 20, 2005

the vast majority of the costs were Schiavo's legal fees... approved by the judge, nontheless.
www.terrisfight.org

No surprises here. I know that this is off the subject, but the lawyers are the REAL winners. My family and I have just settled out of court (and for peanuts, I might add), with the owners of a nursing facility who neglected our father to death. Our attorneys told us when they first accepted our case that their fee was 40%. Now they want all of their expenses paid, which brings their take up to 60%.

If it wasn't for our screwed-up health care and justice system, they'd have to settle for what we get paid... :madface:

Fuzzy · Mar 20, 2005

I guess that I have worked around animals too much. It also doesn't help that I watched my mother die of cancer as a teen. I remember her trying to eat/drink and vomiting and crying because she couldn't keep any food/liquid down. She was wanting to eat and drink but couldn't. I was relieved when she died. Her battle with the pain was over. I see the same thing in the terminal animals that I treat--except most are helped along the way with a bit of euthanasia solution before it becomes so extreme as it did with my mother. If I ever get to the point that my mother did, I hope that I have a little Fatal Plus or SP6 available (euthanasia solutions). If not just put a pillow over my face----just don't let me die by dehydration or starvation.

Fuzzy

Kyriaka · Mar 20, 2005

Thank you.

____________

If I am right, this is an interview that was with the founder of Not Dead Yet a group that I probably should join. It is composed of former ICU & coma patients.

Kyriaka · Mar 20, 2005

The whole thing truly is a tragedy. There are no winners.

If anything is learned...it is so important for people to write down what they do and do not want.

One day, we will be able to tell at what level the person is "in there". Right now, we dont know. The brain is very complicated.

BeachNurse · Mar 20, 2005

Congress Announces Deal in Schiavo Case

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Mar 19, 6:46 PM (ET)

By MITCH STACY

(AP) House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, center, speaks to reporters regarding brain-damaged...

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PINELLAS PARK, Fla. (AP) - Congressional leaders said Saturday they reached a compromise that would call on federal courts to decide Terri Schiavo's fate, as emotions swelled outside the hospice where the brain-damaged woman spent her second day without a feeding tube.

Four protesters were arrested after they symbolically tried to smuggle bread and water to Schiavo, and her mother pleaded for the 41-year-old woman's life.

"We laugh together, we cry together, we smile together, we talk together," Mary Schindler told reporters as supporters maintained a vigil outside the hospice where her daughter is cared for. "Please, please, please save my little girl."

Congressional leaders announced a compromise that would allow the brain-damaged woman's case to be reviewed by federal courts that could restore her feeding tube.

(AP) House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, pauses while speaking to reporters about brain-damaged...

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The Senate was expected to meet Saturday evening on the matter, and House Majority Leader Tom DeLay said the House could approve the bill as early as Sunday.

"We should investigate every avenue before we take the life of a living human being," said DeLay, R-Texas. "That's the very least we can do for her."

The measure would effectively take Schiavo's fate out of Florida state courts, where judges ordered the feeding tube removed on Friday, and allow Schiavo's parents to take their case to a federal judge. DeLay said that would likely mean restoration of the feeding tube "for as long as this appeal endures."

President Bush was expected to sign the bill as soon as it gets to him.

The development was the latest in an epic right-to-die battle between Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, and her husband, Michael Schiavo, over whether she should be permitted to die or kept alive by the feeding tube.

(AP) House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, speaks to reporters regarding brain-damaged Florida woman...

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Randall Terry, an anti-abortion activist who is acting as a Schindler family spokesman, described the parents as "hopeful" that the congressional compromise would succeed. He said the parents also were concerned about the tight security in their daughter's room, which includes a police officer standing guard.

"They are so determined to kill her that they don't want mom or dad to even put an ice chip in her mouth," Terry said.

In Tallahassee, Gov. Jeb Bush's spokesman Jacob DiPietre said the governor applauded the actions in Congress and would work with legislative leaders "to adjust our laws in a similar fashion."

Passage of the measure would require the presence of only a handful of lawmakers. Congress is on its spring recess, making it more difficult to locate lawmakers.

President Bush, who has said he favors a "presumption of life" for Schiavo, would also have to sign the bill into law. Schiavo, 41, could linger for one or two weeks if the tube is not reinserted - as has happened twice before.

(AP) House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, second right, speaks to reporters regarding brain-damaged...

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The attempted compromise would mark the latest wrinkle in the long-running legal battle over the fate of Schiavo, who doctors say is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery. Her husband has insisted she never wanted to live in such a condition.

"I am 100 percent sure," Michael Schiavo said Saturday on NBC's "Today." He did not respond to requests for an interview from The Associated Press.

Michael Schiavo was at his wife's bedside after the tube was removed and said he felt that "peace was happening" for her. "And I felt like she was finally going to get what she wants, and be at peace and be with the Lord," he said.

About three dozen supporters of Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, maintained a vigil outside the hospice where she lives. Four people, including right wing leader James Gordon "Bo" Gritz, were arrested on misdemeanor trespassing charges when they attempted to bring Schiavo bread and water, which she would be unable to consume.

"A woman is being starved to death, and I have to do something," said Brandi Swindell, 28, from Boise, Idaho. "There are just certain things that you have to do, that you have to try."

(AP) House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, speaks to reporters regarding brain-damaged Florida woman...

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A spokesman for Schiavo's parents, Paul O'Donnell, later told reporters that they do not want supporters to engage in civil disobedience on their daughter's behalf.

"The family is asking that the protests remain peaceful," said O'Donnell, a Roman Catholic Franciscan monk.

Schiavo's parents have been attempting for years to remove Michael Schiavo as their daughter's guardian and keep in place the tube that has kept her alive for more than 15 years.

Schiavo suffered severe brain damage in 1990 when a chemical imbalance apparently brought on by an eating disorder caused her heart to stop beating for a few minutes. She can breathe on her own, but has relied on the feeding and hydration tube to keep her alive.

Court-appointed physicians testified her brain damage was so severe that there was no hope she would ever have any cognitive abilities.

Republicans on Capitol Hill were rebuffed by state and federal courts Friday when they tried to halt the tube's removal by issuing subpoenas for Schiavo, her husband and caregivers to appear at congressional hearings.

Both sides accused each other of being motivated by greed over a $1 million medical malpractice award from doctors who failed to diagnose the chemical imbalance.

The Schindlers also said Michael Schiavo wants their daughter dead so he can marry his longtime girlfriend, with whom he has young children. They have begged him to divorce their daughter, and let them care for her.

The case has encompassed at least 19 judges in at least six different courts.

In 2001, Schiavo went without food and water for two days before a judge ordered the tube reinserted when a new witness surfaced.

When the tube was removed in October 2003, the governor pushed through "Terri's Law," and six days later the tube was reinserted. The Florida Supreme Court ruled in September 2004 that Bush had overstepped his authority and declared the law unconstitutional.

James Huffman · Mar 20, 2005

There is a difference when it comes to family law. Our legal system is based on the fact that men are the only ones that count, and that women and children are chattel, property. As gross and disgusting as that may sound, that is what our rule of law was built upon.
.

Perhaps you live in a different state than I do. Can you give me an example of where in the law "women and children are chattel, property"?

Jim Huffman, RN

LilRedRN1973 · Mar 20, 2005

I would hope that my husband would fight for me as long and as hard should I ever be in this situation. I would NEVER want to live as she has for the past decade and a half. I could care less WHAT his motives are for wanting her to die peacefully, but the whole thing has gotten out of hand.

I'm sick of hearing about it and thankful that I am not part of the healthcare team that has been taking care of her. Because I would have real issues helping keep her alive in the state she is. My nana died in hospice and more than likely, it was from either "starvation" or dehydration since she was unable to consume either food or liquid. She died peacefully and I had no problems letting her go like that.

I don't know all the specifics of the case, nor do I care. What I do understand is this should be a wake up call to every single citizen in this country to get IT IN WRITING what your wishes are. Because now that we have all these politicians getting involved, there is a strong possibility that you may, someday, be kept alive when you wish not to be because someone who knows nothing about you decides it's best for you.

For a side note, cremation is not looked upon as a sin or deemed inappropriate for a Catholic. I come from an extremely devout Catholic family and both grandparents have been cremated and my parents plan to be. I can't fathom them choosing that if their church was against it.

Melanie = )

nursepotter05, RN · Mar 20, 2005

Congress should not be allowed to decide this matter! The decision has been placed in the hands of the judicial branch of government. The executive branch should not be overriding the courts! If they are allowed to do this, it is tilting what this country was founed on...balance of power. If the President and Congress can override the next of kin's decision, then where does it stop? I do not see why her parents are being allowed to have a say in the matter. Her husband is next of kin and should be making the decisions, whether they agree with him or not.

I believe she died the day she had the heart attack. I know if I was a vegetable and had been for over ten years (I obviously am not going to get any better), I would want all measures to keep alive stopped. I don't believe anybody would want to live like that.

UnewmeB4 · Mar 20, 2005

if i may...this is exactly why nursing can't get it's act together and be a unified "profession".
granted, we all have different values and beliefs, but i've yet to hear directly (in this forum) from someone who has cared for her (i know there are links to sworn affidavit's).
that being said, let's stop the rumors, assumptions and emotional assertions. we may be experts or have experience in this type of a case, but we're not involved firsthand. stop assuming that you know what terri would want, why the husband is doing the things he is or what the parents are trying to accomplish. you don't.
you only know what these people involved are telling you, what they want you to know.
like it or not, these types of ethical cases will become more common (e.g. cloning, stem cell research, fertility treatments etc.) as technology advances and the legal system lags behind.
i think nurses should decide for themselves where they stand on the issues, then educate themselves, their family, their patients and their leaders. that's what we do best.
also, step back for a moment and consider this particular situation from a public health standpoint. this case should be a wake up call for everyone do complete a living will and health care proxy.
we can't "solve" (or resolve) this particular issue, but we all can learn from it.
and maybe, just maybe, that's what the purpose of terri's life is...

re: living will and poa

unfortunately, that is no guarantee. if a family disagrees, they will still treat the patient. all it takes is one parent or child to say "please, do everything you can to save my mother..." and the drs will!