Gender bias

HouTx, BSN, MSN, EdD · Jul 27, 2015

OP's situation reflects the effects of Affirmative Action, rather than any under-handed, discriminatory initiative. We want to increase the number of men in nursing, so many programs are giving 'extra points' to those applicants. There's really no need to become indignant. I (card-carrying COB) certainly see no problem with this. As always, beneficiaries of Affirmative Action may have an easier time gaining admission, but they then have to survive on their own merit.

Now, if we could only apply the same type of process correct the lack of diversity in the US Legislature, Fortune 500 Boards and the C-Suites throughout the country. . . that would be something!

llg, PhD, RN · Jul 27, 2015

To those of you who don't believe that minorities (including males in nursing) are given an advantage in educational selection and job applications ... you have been misinformed.

I have served on a school admissions committee ... and on the Advisory Board of a couple different nursing schools. I am also actively involved in hiring at my hospital (and at other hospitals in the past). And it is true: minorities of all types (including gender) are often given an advantage. Schools and employers are often required to demonstrate that they do everything they can to increase the minority presence in their institutions -- and the easiest way to do that is often by "giving extra points" in the admissions and hiring processes.

I applaud the OP for not wanting such an advantage, but agree with the other posters that he should just accept it for now and move forward. Perhaps he will someday be in a position to change things. But in the meantime, continue to do a good job so that the people who know you and your work will know that you truly deserve any recognition that you get.

AlphaM · Jul 27, 2015

To those of you who don't believe that minorities (including males in nursing) are given an advantage in educational selection and job applications ... you have been misinformed.
I have served on a school admissions committee ... and on the Advisory Board of a couple different nursing schools. I am also actively involved in hiring at my hospital (and at other hospitals in the past). And it is true: minorities of all types (including gender) are often given an advantage. Schools and employers are often required to demonstrate that they do everything they can to increase the minority presence in their institutions -- and the easiest way to do that is often by "giving extra points" in the admissions and hiring processes.
I applaud the OP for not wanting such an advantage, but agree with the other posters that he should just accept it for now and move forward. Perhaps he will someday be in a position to change things. But in the meantime, continue to do a good job so that the people who know you and your work will know that you truly deserve any recognition that you get.

Has anyone really stop and thought of WHY these advantages are in place?

Zooey72 · Jul 27, 2015

It would become a political argument if anyone wants to ask why these practices are in place. If you want to go there, fine. I won't get into detail about my position other than to say if I don't think my "diversity" adds anything to school or the workplace I sure as heck don't believe anyone else's does. I prefer competency to skin color or genitalia. The least diverse country in the world (Japan) destroys us in academics. If accepting less competent people in the name of diversity is so important I want to see how. And speaking of minorities, Asian students get it the worst when it comes to the quota system.

I had a job for the cable company installing cable. Part of that means I had to gaff (climb) a poll. Comcast greatly wanted to have a female tech, but almost no females ever applied and of those who did from the 7 years I worked there none could climb the pole. The last one did a bit better than most, but was nowhere close to being able to do it. The instructor literally was underneath her pushing her up by the but with his head for her to get to the top.

How exactly is this a good thing when she falls off the pole and breaks her neck? And even if she never did fall (or more than likely would have others climb the pole for her) she would not be very good at her job. That is being a cable tech where a screw up at the job may mean someone misses an episode of "Mad Men" because their cable is out. Being in the medical field people can be hurt and even die if you aren't good at your job. And you do not become more competent at your job by being a 1/2 leprechaun, 1/2 dragon, purple transpiecies communist from Antarctica. (nor does working with one make you better at your own job)

In my case I am not going to say anything. I am no crusader and I have worked too hard to jeopardize what I am trying to do by rocking the boat.

AlphaM · Jul 28, 2015

It would become a political argument if anyone wants to ask why these practices are in place. If you want to go there, fine. I won't get into detail about my position other than to say if I don't think my "diversity" adds anything to school or the workplace I sure as heck don't believe anyone else's does. I prefer competency to skin color or genitalia. The least diverse country in the world (Japan) destroys us in academics. If accepting less competent people in the name of diversity is so important I want to see how. And speaking of minorities, Asian students get it the worst when it comes to the quota system.
I had a job for the cable company installing cable. Part of that means I had to gaff (climb) a poll. Comcast greatly wanted to have a female tech, but almost no females ever applied and of those who did from the 7 years I worked there none could climb the pole. The last one did a bit better than most, but was nowhere close to being able to do it. The instructor literally was underneath her pushing her up by the but with his head for her to get to the top.
How exactly is this a good thing when she falls off the pole and breaks her neck? And even if she never did fall (or more than likely would have others climb the pole for her) she would not be very good at her job. That is being a cable tech where a screw up at the job may mean someone misses an episode of "Mad Men" because their cable is out. Being in the medical field people can be hurt and even die if you aren't good at your job. And you do not become more competent at your job by being a 1/2 leprechaun, 1/2 dragon, purple transpiecies communist from Antarctica. (nor does working with one make you better at your own job)
In my case I am not going to say anything. I am no crusader and I have worked too hard to jeopardize what I am trying to do by rocking the boat.

I'll need some time to correct your grossly misguided generalizations and straw man arguments. Right now I need to go to bed as I fly tomorrow. I will get back to this. Have a good night.

ixchel · Jul 28, 2015

. And you do not become more competent at your job by being a 1/2 leprechaun, 1/2 dragon, purple transpiecies communist from Antarctica.

Totally putting this in the ethnicity blank on paperwork next chance I get.

canigraduate · Jul 28, 2015

I'll need some time to correct your grossly misguided generalizations and straw man arguments. Right now I need to go to bed as I fly tomorrow. I will get back to this. Have a good night.

You know, you really don't have to. This guy's upset. He doesn't need to be harangued.

Zooey72 · Jul 28, 2015

Not upset at all. But I believe under no circumstance should anything other than competency at your job and other like qualities be taken into account when decisions like this are made. There is no exception to this, and to try and make an exception only promotes an 'ism' (sexism, racism, ageism etc). What I know for certain about any argument you bring up is you will not be able to show me how Japan is suffering from the lack of these policies. All you will be able to do is bring up some kind of 'institutional' argument, or that diversity is good... but it can't be measured - it's just there, and we should take for granted it is good like a child who's parents tell him to believe in Santa Claus.

If you can link one creditable stat backing up that these practices improve the QUALITY of work being done you would have an argument. Do not use the argument that if these practices weren't in place there would be no 1/2 dragon, 1/2 leprecaun nurses, that is not an argument of quality. That is an argument for social engineering.

AlphaM · Jul 28, 2015

Not upset at all. But I believe under no circumstance should anything other than competency at your job and other like qualities be taken into account when decisions like this are made. There is no exception to this, and to try and make an exception only promotes an 'ism' (sexism, racism, ageism etc). What I know for certain about any argument you bring up is you will not be able to show me how Japan is suffering from the lack of these policies. All you will be able to do is bring up some kind of 'institutional' argument, or that diversity is good... but it can't be measured - it's just there, and we should take for granted it is good like a child who's parents tell him to believe in Santa Claus.
If you can link one creditable stat backing up that these practices improve the QUALITY of work being done you would have an argument. Do not use the argument that if these practices weren't in place there would be no 1/2 dragon, 1/2 leprecaun nurses, that is not an argument of quality. That is an argument for social engineering.

I decided not to waste my time arguing with you, you seem to "know" what I will and won't be able to discuss. Here's a good article for you.

http://www.psmag.com/books-and-culture/affirmative-action-programs-still-needed-higher-education-90159

la_chica_suerte85, BSN, RN · Aug 1, 2015

:eek:

It's intriguing (and a little panic-inducing) how riled up people get about affirmative action and measures used to promote diversity.

OP, I appreciate where you are coming from. Consider this your first taste of how frustrating and utterly gob smacking nursing school (and the administrative nuts and bolts behind it) can be. In response to your post regarding your Comcast job, however, nursing is one place in particular where male strength is an advantage and greatly appreciated on the floor as people get heavier and heavier. So, in this instance, it wouldn't necessarily put the profession at a disadvantage to have more males around -- if anything, it can (and will) help make things better. This is one example of how working to increase diversity DOES actually help (I mean, I'm a big, sturdy chick and I work out so I can avoid injury at work but a stronger guy willing to help will NEVER go unappreciated).

I can see the argument that by looking to increase diversity one could discount talented and competent individuals. The flaw here, though, is that the NCLEX is the great equalizer. If someone can get through school well enough to get to the NCLEX, they deserve to be there, too, whether or not they were put there by administrators seeking to boost diversity stats. Finally, when it comes to the job hunt, that will be where the men are truly separated from the boys, so to speak (and whether or not someone can get off orientation).

Here.I.Stand, BSN, RN · Aug 3, 2015

OP, I hear you. You want to be accepted on your own merit, not to boost diversity.

Think of it this way, though: your grades are enough to get you in, Y-chromosome or no. Going forward, your Y-chromosomes will have no impact on the objective measures of your performance; you will have to continue to make the grades. Your Y-chromosomes likewise will not help you pass your NCLEX.

Any other token male will also have to perform on his own merit. If he doesn't pass muster, he will fail. He will not make it to the status of practicing RN due to being a male. I also very much doubt that even if selection committees take gender into account, nursing instructors will not. The ones I have known care deeply about performance excellence and will not pass anyone who doesn't deserve to pass.