Frontier Midwifery Program

Jory, MSN, APRN, CNM · Sep 16, 2015

When I look at schools, I am NOT impressed by a 0% attrition rate. If you have a 0% attrition rate and a 75% pass rate, that isn't the school you want to go to. You also wonder if the school is playing around with their statistics.

Life happens and I am always highly suspect of schools with 0% attrition. I'll give you an example.

ADN and BSN programs that are denying graduation to nursing students unless they pass a comprehensive exam, are artificially skewing the statistics. If you only graduate the top performers, and only those students take the NCLEX, you can actually sport a 100% pass rate even though 15% of your students never got the opportunity to take the test....that 100% pass rate does not reflect that 15% of your students didn't pass because they were not prepared. Yes, you can blame it on the students, but it is also the job of the institution to identify students that are having problems and help them through.

So when you are selecting a school and see 100%...you may think you are getting a good school, but not always. This is why I am HIGHLY opposed to requiring students to take a comprehensive final and holding their diploma if they don't pass.

The purpose of publishing the pass rates is to take out substandard nursing programs. Not so nursing schools can play with the statistics. I personally think the CCNE should step in and shut this process down.

So, back to Frontier, you are going to typically have some sort of fall out. I wouldn't feel comfortable with a school unless they had SOME type of fallout. 100% graduate rate can mean two things:

1. The program is easy and they pass everyone.

2. The program is of excellent quality and students are well-prepared.

If you look at Frontier's pass rate, they haven't had a good year every year, but most of their pass rates is over 90%.

queenanneslace, ADN, MSN, APRN, CNM · Sep 17, 2015

I looked at this link above and you did not interpret the statistics correctly.

Well, if there's one thing I'm a stickler for, it's my math. So I went back to check on what statistics I interpreted wrong.

In 2010, the attrition rate was 20.7%, this number steadily increased until the most recent number was posted - and this was 21.9%. You call this "stable." I call this an increase. Regardless of whether it's stable or an increase - we can safely agree that 20% (that's 1 in 5) of the students who enroll will not complete the program. Tell me, how did I interpret this number incorrectly?

Not sure where you got your enrollment numbers - they have a chart titled "unduplicated enrollment" which shows 1319 students enrolled in 2010, and 2134 in 2014. This is an increase of 715 students. This is a 54% increase in enrollment in 4 years. If you want to call that 'not that much,' I mean, that's fine with me. The question I have is how does a school increase enrollment that much without lowering admission standards? That is just one way to do it - not sure if that is the case with FNU or not. It's hard to increase enrollment and admission standards at the same time. One or the other has to give. I'm open to other hypotheses.

The OP's question was "Is it hard to get in?"

I don't think it's hard to get in to Frontier. They seem to be admitting more and more students every year! Kind of looks like it's getting easier to get in, doesn't it? But that's just speculation. But my 'interpretation' of statistics was just fine. I don't think I 'interpreted' or inferred anything. I speculated as to why their statistics were what they were.

Why do 20% of the students who are admitted fail to complete the program? Isn't that a reasonable question? Is speculation not allowed?

klone, MSN, RN · Sep 17, 2015

The question I have is how does a school increase enrollment that much without lowering admission standards? That is just one way to do it - not sure if that is the case with FNU or not. It's hard to increase enrollment and admission standards at the same time. One or the other has to give. I'm open to other hypotheses.

As someone who went to Frontier (yep, I'm a 2011 attrition statistic!) and was active on the FB page for current and potential students, I can tell you - before they increased enrollment, what would happen is that they would get 100 applicants (for example) for a class of 20. Not all 100 applicants would qualify for admission, but perhaps 40 of them would. So the top 20 would have a guaranteed spot, and the other 20 would get wait-listed to the next class, or the class after that. But then the next class of 20 would be open for enrollment, and they'd get 40 more qualified applicants. Now they have a pool of 60 qualified applicants (40 plus 20 waitlisted applicants from the previous class), 20 would get in, and now there are 40 who are waitlisted. Etc, etc.

So they hire more instructors, open up a new class more frequently. Now all 40 qualified applicants have a place, not just 20. Admission standards have not changed.

queenanneslace, ADN, MSN, APRN, CNM · Sep 17, 2015

The concept of reducing admissions standards to increase enrollment is not a theory I invented.

http://www.sciedu.ca/journal/index.php/ijhe/article/download/3567/2214

It's a common phenomenon, and it occurs in colleges and universities all over the country.

Some people are trying to address the issue of decreasing quality of education - others, I guess, choose to ignore that the problem exists at all.

klone, MSN, RN · Sep 17, 2015

No one is saying that isn't happening at educational institutions all over the country. I was simply addressing how it's possible that it's NOT happening at Frontier. You did say you were "open to other hypotheses" did you not?

Explaining one hypothesis on how they can increase enrollment while not decreasing admissions standards is not "ignoring the problem exists at all."

Jory, MSN, APRN, CNM · Sep 21, 2015

Well, if there's one thing I'm a stickler for, it's my math. So I went back to check on what statistics I interpreted wrong.
In 2010, the attrition rate was 20.7%, this number steadily increased until the most recent number was posted - and this was 21.9%. You call this "stable." I call this an increase. Regardless of whether it's stable or an increase - we can safely agree that 20% (that's 1 in 5) of the students who enroll will not complete the program. Tell me, how did I interpret this number incorrectly?
Not sure where you got your enrollment numbers - they have a chart titled "unduplicated enrollment" which shows 1319 students enrolled in 2010, and 2134 in 2014. This is an increase of 715 students. This is a 54% increase in enrollment in 4 years. If you want to call that 'not that much,' I mean, that's fine with me. The question I have is how does a school increase enrollment that much without lowering admission standards? That is just one way to do it - not sure if that is the case with FNU or not. It's hard to increase enrollment and admission standards at the same time. One or the other has to give. I'm open to other hypotheses.
The OP's question was "Is it hard to get in?"
I don't think it's hard to get in to Frontier. They seem to be admitting more and more students every year! Kind of looks like it's getting easier to get in, doesn't it? But that's just speculation. But my 'interpretation' of statistics was just fine. I don't think I 'interpreted' or inferred anything. I speculated as to why their statistics ?

I don't think that 1.2% increase is significant over the course of several years.

Jory, MSN, APRN, CNM · Sep 21, 2015

Well, if there's one thing I'm a stickler for, it's my math. So I went back to check on what statistics I interpreted wrong.
In 2010, the attrition rate was 20.7%, this number steadily increased until the most recent number was posted - and this was 21.9%. You call this "stable." I call this an increase. Regardless of whether it's stable or an increase - we can safely agree that 20% (that's 1 in 5) of the students who enroll will not complete the program. Tell me, how did I interpret this number incorrectly?
Not sure where you got your enrollment numbers - they have a chart titled "unduplicated enrollment" which shows 1319 students enrolled in 2010, and 2134 in 2014. This is an increase of 715 students. This is a 54% increase in enrollment in 4 years. If you want to call that 'not that much,' I mean, that's fine with me.

I didn't get to post a full response because I was busy earlier today, but there are major holes in your theory.

I don't know how long you have been on this board, but there have been MANY students with a 4.0 that applied to Frontier that did not get accepted. I was one of them. I can sit and be disgruntled...I have no clue as to why I didn't get accepted, but it boiled down to statistics: They had more applications than slots and they could be as selective as they wanted to be. However, I am not going to sit and bash the program because national rankings show otherwise.

The major flaw in your theory is that you don't really seem to have a clue as to how many different programs they have and the fact that they have four starts per year. Most nursing programs only have three starts: Fall, Spring, and Summer. Some only have Fall and Spring. The keyword here is: Admitted. This counts every student that started the program.

They have the following programs:

Certified Nurse Midwife

Family Nurse Practitioner

Women's Health Nurse Practitioner.

They have several options within these: Second MSN, Post-MSN, ADN-MSN Bridge, DNP. Their DNP program is relatively new...did you factor in a brand-new program?

So if you take the 2134 and divide that by 4 starts a year you have 533 students per start. They have eight different entry options. So that is 66 students per entry option.

So does 66 students for a single nursing program sound like a lot to you? It isn't. Some programs allow more, some less, but that is an average.

Back to the fact that you are suggesting that they have a high attrition rate because they have lowered their admission standards.

I take it at some point you have taken statistics. Then you should understand the concept of a percentage. If they have increased the enrollment by 54% by expanding the program and their attrition rate remains relatively unchanged (1.2% sister. isn't that big of a deal when you are dealing with that many students), then how to do you factor the drop in admission standards?

If you allow more students in and if the program was so horrible, the attrition rate should have increased A LOT more than 1.2%.

DreamerMW · Sep 22, 2015

I didn't get to post a full response because I was busy earlier today, but there are major holes in your theory.
I don't know how long you have been on this board, but there have been MANY students with a 4.0 that applied to Frontier that did not get accepted. I was one of them. I can sit and be disgruntled...I have no clue as to why I didn't get accepted, but it boiled down to statistics: They had more applications than slots and they could be as selective as they wanted to be. However, I am not going to sit and bash the program because national rankings show otherwise.
The major flaw in your theory is that you don't really seem to have a clue as to how many different programs they have and the fact that they have four starts per year. Most nursing programs only have three starts: Fall, Spring, and Summer. Some only have Fall and Spring. The keyword here is: Admitted. This counts every student that started the program.
They have the following programs:
Certified Nurse Midwife
Family Nurse Practitioner
Women's Health Nurse Practitioner.
They have several options within these: Second MSN, Post-MSN, ADN-MSN Bridge, DNP. Their DNP program is relatively new...did you factor in a brand-new program?
So if you take the 2134 and divide that by 4 starts a year you have 533 students per start. They have eight different entry options. So that is 66 students per entry option.
So does 66 students for a single nursing program sound like a lot to you? It isn't. Some programs allow more, some less, but that is an average.
Back to the fact that you are suggesting that they have a high attrition rate because they have lowered their admission standards.
I take it at some point you have taken statistics. Then you should understand the concept of a percentage. If they have increased the enrollment by 54% by expanding the program and their attrition rate remains relatively unchanged (1.2% sister. isn't that big of a deal when you are dealing with that many students), then how to do you factor the drop in admission standards?
If you allow more students in and if the program was so horrible, the attrition rate should have increased A LOT more than 1.2%.

You didn't get accepted with a 4.0?? Did you meet all the requirements like experience and recommendation letters? Sounds strange.

queenanneslace, ADN, MSN, APRN, CNM · Sep 25, 2015

You're right, Jory. I don't have a clue.

And since I'm currently enrolled at FNU and experiencing all the "rigor" and "excellence" first-hand, I have no right to an opinion about it. And you do. Thanks for setting me straight!

It's really tuff! OMG!!

There are courses with over 150 students enrolled. In an online course. And yes, the quality is suffering for it. Or, maybe it's always been this bad. I haven't been enrolled for 5 years to determine the trend personally. It's not very good right now.

Oh wait - I should clue myself in:

"Frontier is NUMBER #1!!!!

YAY!!!!"

I apologize that I've insulted all the fans. FRONTIER IS AWESOME. It's perfect. There is nothing to criticize about Frontier because FNU can do no wrong.

You want to hear about unicorns and rainbows... there you go!

Jory, MSN, APRN, CNM · Sep 26, 2015

You didn't get accepted with a 4.0?? Did you meet all the requirements like experience and recommendation letters? Sounds strange.

No, it's common. I also applied at a time when their applications were exploding.

Jory, MSN, APRN, CNM · Sep 26, 2015

You're right, Jory. I don't have a clue.
And since I'm currently enrolled at FNU and experiencing all the "rigor" and "excellence" first-hand, I have no right to an opinion about it. And you do. Thanks for setting me straight!
It's really tuff! OMG!!
There are courses with over 150 students enrolled. In an online course. And yes, the quality is suffering for it. Or, maybe it's always been this bad. I haven't been enrolled for 5 years to determine the trend personally. It's not very good right now.
Oh wait - I should clue myself in:
"Frontier is NUMBER #1!!!!
YAY!!!!"
I apologize that I've insulted all the fans. FRONTIER IS AWESOME. It's perfect. There is nothing to criticize about Frontier because FNU can do no wrong.
You want to hear about unicorns and rainbows... there you go!

We were talking about the attrition rate and now the truth reveals itself: you are disgruntled.

I have several friends that have recently graduated who all loved the program.

nakeia · Oct 2, 2015

This post has been very enlightening! Thank you Mamita for asking the question and thank you commenters for responding!