For those of you who hold a hold a biology or science degree

AtomicWoman · Nov 22, 2008

I am following this conversation with a lot of interest. I start NS next May. I have to say this: I. Love. Science. I love digging deep, asking the "Why does this happen?" questions, getting myself all confused and then having an "A ha!" moment. I am currently taking organic chemistry voluntarily; that's how much I love science. I am so hoping to understand disease processes at a deeper level as a result of nursing school. Heck, I read the CME activities for doctors on Medscape just for fun. LOL

However, even if NS turns out to be shallow, I'm planning to go on for my NP. Hopefully, I'll be able to deepen my understanding of medical science in that arena. Because when you come down to it, my intellectual curiosity about science is not merely idle curiosity. I want to *apply* the knowledge in a way that helps some people live better, healthier lives. I want to be able to combine my listening skills, thinking skills and problem-solving skills with both my compassion for others *and* my love of science.

After reading this thread, it seems I may have to put my science geek cap away for the duration of nursing school. :)

tran217 · Dec 9, 2008

My question for those who would describe nursing school as 'frustratingly shallow,' is, does this at all make you regret not going the medical route? Personally I would absolutely love to go to medical school from an academic stand point, but the realities of the field (once you're out and working) make me lean a lot more towards being an NP.
Thoughts?

Charmed said something that I am definitely struggling with right now: I would absolutely love to go to med school from an academic stand point, but reality is that NP is a better fit.

I am currently enrolled in an accelerated masters degree for non-nurses program that I absolutely dread attending. It compresses the material for the RN and CNL into 20 months. Still, the academic challenge is nothing compared to what I was anticipating.

Example: Today we had a math exam in fundamentals and anyone who scored below 95% can retake it. It was simple dimensional analysis with no more than 1-2 conversions in each problem. People scored below 95%. We had spent 90 minutes on these math problems the week before.

Example: In pathophysiology, our first unit was a review of fundamentals. What were the components of the cell? membrane, nucleus, cytoplasm. Those were the things we were responsible for!! I was flabbergasted.

Example: There is a specialty field in nursing called 'transcultural nursing.' The class is hours upon hours of hard to digest information that you will be tested on and will receive a grade. (I'm such a sucker for getting good grades.) There is a textbook and a journal in it, so I know that it is bigger than my prof and my school. We watched a documentary on Lembas: The Black Jews. I have the strangest notes written down: 'Race is a non-fact.' and 'The number one status symbol in America is owning a house.'

Example: Nursing research will knock your socks off. There is quantitative and qualitative research. It makes no sense to me whatsoever. Entire PhDs are earned by interviewing about feelings and then presenting the dialogue as raw data.

These are things you do in nursing school. It will not compare to a biology degree in the slightest.

hnt1987 · Dec 9, 2008

that's a lot youth years wasting away.

CharmedJ7 · Dec 9, 2008

"I have the strangest notes written down: 'Race is a non-fact.' and 'The number one status symbol in America is owning a house.'"

That's funny, I had an argument with a professor in a developmental psychology class about whether or not race was a relevant term - I said yes, because it is perceived as such and perceptions profoundly affect behaviour. She said no, because the book said no. I was unimpressed with the explanation. I also had a calculus class once where one of my notes from the first day was like "what do graphs tell you? Graphs are very useful." The class was subsequently quite tough, but gotta love reviewing your notes and coming across stuff like that!

Do you mind if I ask what school you go to? I've been reading a lot of threads about nursing school and it seems hard in the way of either "there's an insane amount of work" or "you fail below an 80" or "the tests have nothing to do with the book or class" which all kind of fall in the category of stupid hard in my eyes, ie, hard in a way that doesn't really make you any better but keeps averages low.

It seems like there's a lot of room in nursing though once you're out in the field to make it your own and bring as much to the table as you're capable of, so that's a reassuring thought - I can go back to getting super excited over new research on random pathways and keeping on learning and incorporating new information to my practice as long as I'm motivated to do so. I think this is another benefit to advanced practice but I don't see why bedside nursing couldn't bring in this dimension as well.

good luck, I hope it gets better for you!

amjowens · Dec 9, 2008

I really appreciate this thread. I'm am interested in science, and enjoy studying the medical side of what nursing just touches.

I came to the reality that I'm studying nursing when I grasped the concept of the "nursing diagnosis" rather than the "medical diagnosis". I was premed, and got off track. Now, I'm hoping to become a nurse practitioner. I'm going the LONG route, as I want to get out and gain experience and $ asap. I just graduated from a LPN program (all As on those **** NCLEX-style exams-yay!), and begin my regular RN in a few weeks. I plan to continuously complete one degree at a time, gaining experience as I go. It doesn't help that my boyfriend is a resident, but med school is something I do yearn for.

I either need to make peace and find my niche in the study and practice of nursing, or I need to apply to med school. Nurse practitioners are nurse practitioners, not medical doctors. The thinking and focus is just different. It's nursing. Nursing is not medicine. It's like a nurse wanting to practice as a pharmacist. You'd tell the nurse to go to pharmacy school. Anyway, the patient is counting on having a pharmacist AND a nurse-two different but necessary roles. I think that nurses trying to fulfill aspirations to practice as MDs without a medical license are hurting the potentially empowering role of advanced practice nurses. I don't want to add to that. I either want to embrace myself as a nurse, or embrace myself and my role as physician.

jpeters84 · Dec 9, 2008

tran217 i have to agree with you. In some ways nursing school can be shockingly at the basics. But then I find that I really struggle and diasagree with what is considered "critical thinking." For my fundamentals class I know the concepts well. Inserting an indwelling catheter is not brain surgery. Yet I'll sit down to take the test and there will be a "critical thinking" question about indwelling catherters and I can't tell you for the life of me what the hell the professor is asking. So for me nursing school is really frustrating on that level. It seems very inconsistent. On some things the school will have very little expectations and than on others the smallest issue could be grounds for dismissal. I think nursing school has just been formulated like this for years and no nursing school is willing to step up and make the changes necessary. There is no accountability. It really does make you miss science so much. If it wasn't for patient care I'd be going back to science. Instead of being a challenging process where I work hard, learn a lot, what you put in is what you get out, strive to do my absolute best, and enjoy the process like it was for biology, I now look at nursing school as just something I have to get through. It's sad.

jjjoy, LPN · Dec 9, 2008

:yeahthat:

kbnocturna · Dec 9, 2008

I haven't read the entire thread, so sorry if someone's already said this.

The best thing you could do for yourself is go get a job in a hospital as a nursing assistant. There are few better ways to get an up-close look at what nurses do, and you'll learn very quickly whether or not you truly want to be a nurse.

I do not have a science degree, but I maxed out on biology courses before i entered the nursing program. I probably would have pursued the science degree before the nursing, except the nursing was more practical. Having a strong biology background helps a lot in a nursing program, but it's only a base. Nursing school teaches you an entirely different way of thinking. It gives you a framework to view the biology through.

emmy27 · Dec 9, 2008

Care plans tended to focus more on teaching, patient comfort, and psychosocial concerns than anything else.

Whoa, that's so different from my program. We're required to link each diagnosis to the cellular-level pathology of the problem, and the expected outcome and criteria for measuring the outcome must address the patho. And patient teaching is never allowed on care maps- we have to write a separate patient education form, and come up with non-teaching interventions for the care plan. It can be really, really frustrating to write a care map for our instructors when the patient has very little wrong with them on a pathophysiologic level, and really just does need some psychosocial guidance or a little teaching.

There's probably a happy medium somewhere between the two approaches. Wish I was there!

Edited to add: After reading more of the thread, I just wanted to point out that the best nurses have the compassionate patient-advocate worldview of nursing theory and skills AND an in-depth understanding of biology and pathology AND an ability to think critically and evaluate information from a scientific perspective. With all of those elements, a nurse is equipped to provide the best possible care for his or her patients. But without the second two, you're a less than optimal nurse, whereas without the the nursing theory/skills, you're not a nurse. So yes, naturally that's what nursing school will focus on, within the finite amount of time available.

That doesn't mean that it isn't entirely possible as a student to surpass the bare minimum expectations of the curriculum and learn the patho in-depth, or that a background in bio or path won't deepen and enrich your skills and practice. It will, and it can be the difference between being a good nurse and a great nurse. But primarily, nursing schools are trying to turn out nurses- not biologists, not pathology experts, not mini-docs. Understanding patho is awesome, and it gives many people (myself included) satisfaction, but past a certain level it is a bit tangential to the job. Understanding exactly what mechanism caused massive diarrhea in a patient is good, but it doesn't alter the fact that it's your job to deal with the reality of it having already happened. And so while knowing the patho is important, it's even more important that a grad nurse know how to assess a patient's stool, clean the patient, communicate with them, their family, and the rest of the health team about the incident, make the bed, provide equipment or instructions for future toileting, culture the stool, communicate the results to the HCP, and administer any ordered treatments. Anyone straight out of a patho course could tell you the reasons it might have happened, perhaps in more detail than the average grad nurse, who may only remember as much patho as is relevant to the various care pathways. But that doesn't make somebody who took a patho course a nurse. You know?

Patient care will always have a big part in nursing school. It's awesome if you come out of nursing school with a wicked sharp understanding of patho, and with dedication you can, but it's no good if it came at the cost of not knowing what to do or say to your patient when they need you. So as frustrating as the lack of a focus on biology may be for some people, it seems like less a commentary on the quality of nursing education and more a commentary on the fact that not everyone is completely content in the role of nurse.

Which is okay. That's what medicine, biology, and heaps of other fields are for.