Flu shot issue

Nurses COVID

Published

I get a flu shot every year without any problem, and took a flu shot at work this week. This flu shot hurt a lot. It burned going in, and literally made my eyes tear up. Usually it doesn't hurt at all. I work nights, and went home and to bed right after. When I woke up the area was very swollen, red, hot to touch, and very sore. I took two Tylenol and went to work thinking the new H1N1 made it hurt worse, and it would get better.

By the next morning I felt feverish, my throat was so sore I could barely swallow my own secretions, and I was having periods of dizziness. I would be sitting there charting and suddenly feel as if the room had spun sideways. I made it through the night, and went home to bed. I woke up and my throat was better, but I had nausea, a headache, and was achy all over. I was off for the night so I went back to bed, and had a really rough night. I would be cold, but wake up wet with sweat so I think I was sweating off a fever.

When I got up I had hives all over me 16 total (back, buttocks, and sides). Since I have been up I have two more appear. I am still have a headache, feel achy, and feel feverish even though it shows my temp is normal.

I called into work tonight, and plan on seeing the Dr in the morning.

This year my hospital REQUIRED us to get the flu vaccine, paid for it, and administered it. If this is indeed a reaction can they consider my call in an occurrence, or would it fall under the workers comp plan as a work related situation?

Really? Where would you be able to work that you wouldn't be required to have a vaccine???? Public health??? Nope... dealing with the elderly and children. Long term care??? Nope, dealing with palliative and elderly people again. Third world countries???? Nope gotta get a shot to go overseas...... So pretty much vaccination is everywhere....so long as you Nurse. So then can you be a nurse and not be vaccinated?

I do personally feel it is a constitutional issue. When a government considers mandating vaccinations, then it becomes a constitutional issue and no longer a employer policy issue.

How far are we willing to allow our personal rights as Nurses to be superceded by the rights of others. A patient has more rights to determine the course of their own healthcare than the nurse providing it. Does that seem right?

In this area, it's only hospitals & LTC that require the flu shot. Public Health doesn't, community health clinics don't, hospice doesn't, Doctor's offices don't, the school districts don't, health insurance companies don't, surgery centers don't. Seems like a lot of options.

Which third world country is requiring you to get a flu shot?

Which legislation is requiring you to get vaccinated?

It is an interesting question though, since as I said above, vaccination is personal health issue with huge public health implications. So, where does one's autonomy interfere with a patient's right to be protected as possible?

Just fyi, I am participating in a flu shot research study. GlaxoSmithKline is planning to add a 4th component to the 3 component vaccine they currently distribute and it is in the final phase of testing before being put on the market. I think they somewhat "expect" the type of reaction you had to occur in a certain percentage of people who receive the shots because the diary I have to keep for 10 days asks questions about all of the symptoms you experienced. Not saying it's common, but statistically a certain percentage of recipients are going to react, right? I also wonder about the shingles and whether or not it was a factor in your reaction because during my pre-participation interview and my husband's they asked both of us whether or not we had ever had shingles. Fascinating stuff - sorry - I know it's not fun and probably very frightening from your perspective, but fascinating as to why the body reacts the way it does. Maybe I have a future in immunology LOL. Hope you feel better soon!

Any idea what the "fourth component" is? I have researched quite a bit about the GSK vaccine adjuvant system and would be very courious to know what they're adding. Can you find out for me?

No forcing? Yet told "get this controversial vaccine jabbed into your arm or else... You're Fired." ... a la Donald Trump.

Oh no, not forcing at all.

Sure, if heavy doses of propaganda, along with social and economic coercion disguised as freedom of choice works for you... hey, have at it.

The last thing I'll say on the matter is that I'm especially thankful to be a born and bred Canadian. :redbeathe

Don't be deceived into thinking our system is any better or unique from the Americans. Did you know that Canada signed a 'pandemic' co-operation agreement, that basically co-ordinates our two country's policies and even allows the military to come into our country in order to protect it's interests in case of natural or manmade disasters (including pandemics)?? Our quasi-democratic society only lightly veils the tyranny as democracy...but only lightly.:eek:

Thank you, I agree that these all are trustworthy sites. They also disagree with the article I was quoting.

Specializes in Oncology.

CuriousMe,

You make it sound so simple, just get another job at another hospital if you don't want the vaccine. Well, have you not been reading the threads on here for quite some time regarding nurses trying to find jobs all over the country and some of them are practically crying and begging for jobs? Lets be realistic here, this is not a good time to be challenging hospitals because they've flooded (deliberately, I'm sure) the market, with an over abundance of nurses and so we don't have the leverage and bargaining power that we once enjoyed. That being said, I agree with Ottawa, that if we just go along with forced vaccinations and don't challenge them at all, we contribute to the problem. This is about something much bigger than what the eye can see. Our rights are being slowly and surely eroded away. If we don't wise up, we're going to be like the frog in the pot of water, by the time it's boiling and we do finally wake up and realize what they've done to us, it'll be too late to jump out of the water! It starts out a flu shot, then they'll want us to get more and more vaccines. If we set a precedent of apathy now, we will end up regretting it later. And by the way, when I went to nursing school, it was just the basic vaccinations that were required, nobody ever saw a yearly flu vaccine coming, (I mean who signed on for that?) they'll be trying to foist the pneumonia vaccine on us before we know it. I have asthma and I am very careful to NOT get the flu vaccination for that reason (I know that's the oppposite of the advice but I have to protect my lungs at all costs). When I get sick, it goes straight to my chest. I have never got the flu and I have never received the vaccine. Instead, I am proactive about my health, I take Vit. C (large daily doses), zinc and D3 daily during the winter flu and cold season and shop at Whole Foods for healthy organic foods. I am rarely sick and when staff on my floor were dropping like flies last winter, I didn't get sick. When something isn't broke it doesn't need fixed. I can think of no good reason to mess with my health at this point and I don't think it's right to force me to submit to the vaccine. Do you think they're going to care when I'm sickly after the vaccine? Do you think they'll be around to care if and when I develop an autoimmune disease (which has been documented) from yearly vaccinations? No, I don't think they will and I dare say, neither will you! I can't get a feel for who's side you're on here, the nurses or the out of touch with reality administration? Please don't hand me that patient advocate garbage either, the truth of the matter is, if we don't take care of ourselves first we can't take care of them. I don't understand why you couldn't comprehend the analogy of the abortion and honoring a woman's right to do whatever she wants with her body, even to the point of allowing her to kill an unborn baby but yet, we nurses and all healthcare workers are expected to be set apart from society and endure forced vaccinations against our will. I'm not even going to try and explain it to you, you seem reasonably intelligent, so I suspect you're not understanding, is deliberate because you don't want to.

Specializes in ICU.
Thank you, I agree that these all are trustworthy sites. They also disagree with the article I was quoting.

They highlight the connections between the CDC and the FDA that the post you were responding to drew - the connections you vehemently demanded proof of from a reputable source. The websites also comprehensively pinpoint the ACIP's role and influence.

I recommend glancing over the 2008 Draft Strategic National Vaccine Plan.

CuriousMe,

You make it sound so simple, just get another job at another hospital if you don't want the vaccine. Well, have you not been reading the threads on here for quite some time regarding nurses trying to find jobs all over the country and some of them are practically crying and begging for jobs? Lets be realistic here, this is not a good time to be challenging hospitals because they've flooded (deliberately, I'm sure) the market, with an over abundance of nurses and so we don't have the leverage and bargaining power that we once enjoyed. That being said, I agree with Ottawa, that if we just go along with forced vaccinations and don't challenge them at all, we contribute to the problem. This is about something much bigger than what the eye can see. Our rights are being slowly and surely eroded away. If we don't wise up, we're going to be like the frog in the pot of water, by the time it's boiling and we do finally wake up and realize what they've done to us, it'll be too late to jump out of the water! It starts out a flu shot, then they'll want us to get more and more vaccines. If we set a precedent of apathy now, we will end up regretting it later. And by the way, when I went to nursing school, it was just the basic vaccinations that were required, nobody ever saw a yearly flu vaccine coming, (I mean who signed on for that?) they'll be trying to foist the pneumonia vaccine on us before we know it. I have asthma and I am very careful to NOT get the flu vaccination for that reason (I know that's the oppposite of the advice but I have to protect my lungs at all costs). When I get sick, it goes straight to my chest. I have never got the flu and I have never received the vaccine. Instead, I am proactive about my health, I take Vit. C (large daily doses), zinc and D3 daily during the winter flu and cold season and shop at Whole Foods for healthy organic foods. I am rarely sick and when staff on my floor were dropping like flies last winter, I didn't get sick. When something isn't broke it doesn't need fixed. I can think of no good reason to mess with my health at this point and I don't think it's right to force me to submit to the vaccine. Do you think they're going to care when I'm sickly after the vaccine? Do you think they'll be around to care if and when I develop an autoimmune disease (which has been documented) from yearly vaccinations? No, I don't think they will and I dare say, neither will you!

I'm asthmatic as well. Very well controlled, until I get sick, then I get very brittle, very fast. It's why I've been getting a yearly flu shot since....well, for as long as I can remember. Like you, if I get sick it goes right to my chest. So, I'm sure to protect myself by getting a yearly flu shot. I did have the flu once (before I started getting vaccinated) and it nearly hospitalized me (and I was in my twenties at the time, young and by all other measures, healthy).

If you weren't a health care professional, I'd completely agree with you. There's no reason for you to protect yourself with a vaccine...you get to make your choice for yourself.

But working as a health care professional changes it, because now you've signed on to care for others. So, in right to work states, hospitals have the right to require that you protect your patients. It seems you think this is some kind of conspiracy. Do you really think the hospital is making money on giving their employees free flu shots? If anything, it's costing them money, but they recognize that by investing in flu shots for everyone, they're decreasing the potential of sick days as well as passing on the flu to a patient.

I can't get a feel for who's side you're on here, the nurses or the out of touch with reality administration?

I'm on the side of the patient. Our best science today supports yearly flu vaccinations

Please don't hand me that patient advocate garbage either, the truth of the matter is, if we don't take care of ourselves first we can't take care of them.

I'm sorry you feel patient advocacy is garbage (can't imagine that's what you mean??) I feel strongly that our best science supports that we protect our patients by being vaccinated. I agree, we need to take care of ourselves,so protecting ourselves from flu will protect them from flu.

I don't understand why you couldn't comprehend the analogy of the abortion and honoring a woman's right to do whatever she wants with her body, even to the point of allowing her to kill an unborn baby but yet, we nurses and all healthcare workers are expected to be set apart from society and endure forced vaccinations against our will. I'm not even going to try and explain it to you, you seem reasonably intelligent, so I suspect you're not understanding, is deliberate because you don't want to.

I suppose I should thank you that you feel I'm at least reasonably intelligent. I don't feel it's an appropriate analogy for two reasons...the first is that there is no public health component to abortion. It's one (or two, depending on your beliefs) individuals, not a public health issue....there's not going to be an outbreak of an infectious disease after an abortion. The second is that it seems that you've chosen the only other issue that is more heated and emotional then this one. It makes it seem to me, that the introduction of that issue, is meant to only stir folks emotions even more.

My apologies if that wasn't your intention.

Specializes in Oncology.

CuriousMe,

Another option the hospitals could exercise would be to allow staff to stay home whilst they are ill with the flu so as not to infect anyone, however; as you must well know most hospitals absence policys are such that we are often times forced to come to work even when we are sick. And . . . speaking of that, what about all the times that we come to work with colds, runny noses, sneezing and so far they haven't found a vaccination for the common cold, none the less we expose patients to viral pathogens. So what's the difference? The simple cold can make an immune compromised patient extremely ill (I am an oncology nurse). If we start letting them give us vaccines for the flu, we're just going to start a never ending parade of vaccinations. As far as my asthma goes, I disagree with the current advice that those with lung conditions should get the flu vaccine. Like I've said, if I did get the shot and I got sick from it (like I've seen happen to several of my colleagues at work) then I am sure that it would eventually end up in my chest. I could miss weeks of work (I have missed weeks of work just from a simple cold that went to my chest) so I'm not trying too hard to find out if that's the case. My right to protect my lungs should be honored. I mean where do the nurse's rights to protect her body begin and end? EMTs (took an EMT course in college) are always taught to protect themselves first and if there's danger, they are to not go near the patient until or if it is safe for them. In that same way, I have to protect myself FIRST, otherwise I will not be able to be there to take care of my patients. I didn't mean that patient advocacy is garbage in the sense that it came across, I only meant it in this instance. I can be the staunchest of patient advocate when I feel it is necessary. Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt. I guess you and I can agree to disagree on this subject. I will never embrace your viewpoint and you will not embrace mine. For now my name isn't Jesus and I'm not saying that I'm going to lay down my life for the sake of my patients or for the nursing profession , nor do I feel that that's even necessary in order to provide good care to my patients.

CuriousMe,

Another option the hospitals could exercise would be to allow staff to stay home whilst they are ill with the flu so as not to infect anyone, however; as you must well know most hospitals absence policys are such that we are often times forced to come to work even when we are sick.

The problem is that we are contagious before symptoms appear....so we could pass on the flu before we even know we're sick.

I agree, that we should be staying home when we're sick (both for our and the patient's sake).

And . . . speaking of that, what about all the times that we come to work with colds, runny noses, sneezing and so far they haven't found a vaccination for the common cold, none the less we expose patients to viral pathogens. So what's the difference? The simple cold can make an immune compromised patient extremely ill (I am an oncology nurse).

You said it yourself, there isn't a vaccine for the common cold. Additionally, true flu tends to be much more severe then a cold.

If we start letting them give us vaccines for the flu, we're just going to start a never ending parade of vaccinations. As far as my asthma goes, I disagree with the current advice that those with lung conditions should get the flu vaccine. Like I've said, if I did get the shot and I got sick from it (like I've seen happen to several of my colleagues at work) then I am sure that it would eventually end up in my chest. I could miss weeks of work (I have missed weeks of work just from a simple cold that went to my chest) so I'm not trying too hard to find out if that's the case.

I understand that you disagree....but I have a hard time even understanding your reasoning (I'm trying to understand what pathophysiology you're concerned will happen). You can not catch the flu, from a flu shot. You can feel cruddy due to the immune response, might even feel a bit achy. But, as someone who get's an asthmatic reaction and secondary lung infection from even a case of the sniffles, I can tell you....I've never had an asthmatic reaction to the flu shot. Short of an allergic reaction to the vaccine, I can't even imagine the pathphysiology of an asthmatic reaction to the shot.

My right to protect my lungs should be honored.

The problem is that our best science doesn't support that not vaccinating is protecting your lungs....so, policy is going to be made based on our best science, and not personal feelings.

I mean where do the nurse's rights to protect her body begin and end? EMTs (took an EMT course in college) are always taught to protect themselves first and if there's danger, they are to not go near the patient until or if it is safe for them. In that same way, I have to protect myself FIRST, otherwise I will not be able to be there to take care of my patients. I didn't mean that patient advocacy is garbage in the sense that it came across, I only meant it in this instance. I can be the staunchest of patient advocate when I feel it is necessary. Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt. I guess you and I can agree to disagree on this subject. I will never embrace your viewpoint and you will not embrace mine. For now my name isn't Jesus and I'm not saying that I'm going to lay down my life for the sake of my patients or for the nursing profession , nor do I feel that that's even necessary in order to provide good care to my patients.

Again, evidence doesn't support your belief. Policy is based on the best evidence we have today. So, according to that science, vaccinating health care professionals (HCP) is protecting the caregiver first. Which is in line with protecting yourself first.

Specializes in Oncology.

I'm not going to argue this anymore with you but suffice to say that it should remain the individual's decision whether or not they want to submit to a vaccination, even if we just think we might become ill from it. The point, and this has been completely lost on your part, is that it should remain my right to refuse the vaccination for WHATEVER reason because it is after all going to enter my body. I should not have to risk losing my job. It isn't even proven that flu vaccines work. If I had a dollar for every time I have a patient who is admitted with pneumonia and lo and behold they had the pneumonia vaccine, that would be like a pay raise for me! Vaccinations are not always effective. You present a good argument, but I'm not convinced or buying. What I've been doing to stay healthy thus far has worked for me, I see no reason to do anything different.

I'm not going to argue this anymore with you but suffice to say that it should remain the individual's decision whether or not they want to submit to a vaccination, even if we just think we might become ill from it. The point, and this has been completely lost on your part, is that it should remain my right to refuse the vaccination for WHATEVER reason because it is after all going to enter my body. I should not have to risk losing my job. It isn't even proven that flu vaccines work. If I had a dollar for every time I have a patient who is admitted with pneumonia and lo and behold they had the pneumonia vaccine, that would be like a pay raise for me! Vaccinations are not always effective. You present a good argument, but I'm not convinced or buying. What I've been doing to stay healthy thus far has worked for me, I see no reason to do anything different.

I haven't missed the point, I just disagree.

Specializes in acute care med/surg, LTC, orthopedics.
Is your implication that those who do their research and see the value and safety of vaccinations....are followers, because they disagree with you?

The problem with coining vaccination strictly as a "right to choose" issue, is that it's an issue that has huge public health implications. We are health care professionals. There are plenty of things that I give up my rights on to be able to be a health care professional. I am required to get drug tested, I'm required to have an FBI Background check, and I'm required to not be a danger to my patients by being vaccinated.

I can always choose to not work in a hospital, and then I will not be required by anyone to have a vaccine.

For some reason, you feel this is a constitutional issue....even though it has nothing to do with the constitution. But, it's simply not.

Somehow I'm not at all surprised that you made this leap but no... the followers are those that reluctantly succumb to intimidation from those in a position of power, despite their better judgment.

I won't be baited into continuing Round 2 of this p!ssing contest, but will leave with a final observation. Unlike you, I am capable of objectively seeing the value on both sides of the equation. In fact there's no disputing that flu vaccination programs have been largely effective in improving health of communities worldwide however, there's also no disputing that valid concern regarding the efficacy and safety of the vaccines exists in many professional circles and is equally significant.

There is a myriad of information supporting and disputing both sides of the argument, it's simply a matter of what one chooses to believe. My belief is that free society should not be forced to comply with pressure tactics under duress for fear of losing their jobs, especially on an issue so questionable. And before you go all mental again on the use of the word "forced" if one's very livelihood and future are threatened if non-compliant, that's called psychological coercion. This practice, in my world, is misguided and unconscionable.

Your argument of submitting to drug testing or criminal record checks as conditions of employment are moot points, none of these requirements introduce potentially harmful substances into your system. Apples to oranges.

And finally, you and I will have to agree to disagree as going around in circles has become counterproductive and tedious. I've marked my territory, you've marked yours, onwards and upwards.

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