Florence Nightengale - who is she?

abrenrn · Oct 21, 2002

I agree with Karen completely. FN left us with a lot of baggage. This should not prevent us from noting and celebrating her accomplishments in nursing.

donmurray · Oct 21, 2002

We are having a TV poll here on great Britons, In FN's bio, they mentioned that infection/death rates at Scutari initially rose, after she took over.

Anyone heard of Mrs Bedford-Fenwick, who proposed nurse Registration, and was the first UK RN.......No. 1

abrenrn · Oct 21, 2002

I haven't heard that one. I just know mortality rates were 42% before she got there with her nurses, 2% 6 months after. I wonder if a physician gave those stats? In FN's time they were absolutely outraged at the idea of educating nurses at all - even after the Crimean war. As people were so pleased that their wounded family and friends started coming home alive, the public supported Nightengale's attempt to start a school of nursing indepedent from hospitals (who, she feared, would see students as a source of free labor, ignoring education).

Did FN curse the nursing profession she created? I think so. She held to rigid class and sex distinctions despite an intellect that was able to see beyond accepted conventions in other areas. She stated that nurses were as important as physicians but that was something for nurses to know, not the MD - leaving a deferential role in which all communication is placed on the shoulders of nurses (if a doctor does not listen to what a nurse says, it is her job to get him to hear it - a paraphrase). She also said men could not make good nurses - very wrong.

I also suspect she was reluctant to share the spotlight with others, so the contributions of contemporaries in nursing were not noted by her. A strong group of leaders did not seem to emerge. Sadly, as a result of this fault, much of what she had learned and believed was lost - no strong nurses to carry on.

These are conclusions I have drawn. Nevertheless - FN made a very important contribution - she defined a professional model of caring. Prior to her, it was in the hands of the religious in some countries, primarily prostitutes in England. Her thinking was brilliant and she was the first statistician.

Do we throw the baby out with the bath water?

llg, PhD, RN · Oct 22, 2002

Originally posted by donmurray
We are having a TV poll here on great Britons, In FN's bio, they mentioned that infection/death rates at Scutari initially rose, after she took over.
Anyone heard of Mrs Bedford-Fenwick, who proposed nurse Registration, and was the first UK RN.......No. 1

Back in 1979, I had to write a paper on Mrs. Bedford-Fenwick as part of a class I was taking in Nursing Administration. The class was part of my Master's Degree program (in the United States.)

So, yes, I have heard of heard of her. While she is not nearly as well-known here in the States, she has not been totally forgotten.

For that class back in 1979, each student had to do a paper and presentation on a different nursing leader from history. Studying their lives, careers, and the issues they confronted facilitated our appreciation of our profession, its development, and the contemporary issues we face. It helped us develop a perspective that most nurses never develop. I wish more nursing programs (both graduate and undergraduate) would include such activities.

llg

llg, PhD, RN · Oct 22, 2002

Originally posted by donmurray
We are having a TV poll here on great Britons, In FN's bio, they mentioned that infection/death rates at Scutari initially rose, after she took over.
Anyone heard of Mrs Bedford-Fenwick, who proposed nurse Registration, and was the first UK RN.......No. 1

Back in 1979, I had to write a paper on Mrs. Bedford-Fenwick as part of a class I was taking in Nursing Administration. The class was part of my Master's Degree program (in the United States.)

So, yes, I have heard of heard of her. While she is not nearly as well-known here in the States, she has not been totally forgotten.

For that class back in 1979, each student had to do a paper and presentation on a different nursing leader from history. Studying their lives, careers, and the issues they confronted facilitated our appreciation of our profession, its development, and the contemporary issues we face. It helped us develop a perspective that most nurses never develop. I wish more nursing programs (both graduate and undergraduate) would include such activities.

llg

abrenrn · Oct 24, 2002

I agree with llg. We are not taught are history, don't know where we've come from, so we don't really know who we are.

florry · Oct 24, 2002

Originally posted by P_RN
FreeRooster55 you have been taken in by a myth.

She died of heart failure August 13, 1910.

http://www.florence-nightingale-avenging-angel.co.uk/faq.htm#Syphilis

As far as we know, FN the aprox. 6-8 years of life lost her memory, she was almost blind, she used morphine to kill her pain (remember her staying in bed for 40 years and had some fatigue syndrom/PTSS.

Allthough she was,- until her memory lost very busy by corresponding with "importent people" to reorganize the nursing esp. in India. - And on the personal plan she was very caring about every sister in training by Florence Nightingale school

at S. Thomas'. She gave them some usefull things, money and so on. This is from the biography by Cook and Woodham Smith, witch are some of the most important and detailed books about her shortly after she past away.

The theory(?) about syphilis I have never seen, and I have done a lot of research about her. If she had that, I think the symptoms would have come alot earlier than 80 years old..... I have seen it confirmed that she godt dementia senilis. (allthough they didnt have an MRI or SPECT on that time.....)

florry · Oct 25, 2002

Originally posted by abrenrn
I agree with llg. We are not taught are history, don't know where we've come from, so we don't really know who we are.

:) Yes, I think that was I good path looking at our history! And what can I see and what can I learn looking back on this path...? Just wondering.

From

Florry

Ariko · Oct 25, 2002

We had to study St. Flo in nursing theory class. My MAJOR complaint about her is

1) she did not like men in nursing (not all that uncommon still) and 2) she felt that women were naturally nurses ergo, they did not need to be trained. This is clearly heresy (get it) to criticize her, but Johns Hopkins did a lot more for nursing in my view.

(a male RN)

florry · Oct 25, 2002

Originally posted by Ariko
We had to study St. Flo in nursing theory class. My MAJOR complaint about her is
1) she did not like men in nursing (not all that uncommon still) and 2) she felt that women were naturally nurses ergo, they did not need to be trained. This is clearly heresy (get it) to criticize her, but Johns Hopkins did a lot more for nursing in my view.

(a male RN)

Hello!

Maybe she loved her profession more than men!

But still loved men..Maybe it was a coping mechanism related to the home or the parents she had...They expected though that she should marry a man. I think she married her nursing.....

nightingale, RN · Oct 25, 2002

In considering her era, Florence was a revolutionary woman.

Thank you to all for this invigorating discussion.

prmenrs, RN · Oct 25, 2002

Check this out:

http://www.countryjoe.com/nightingale/