Experience with Distance Ed NP programs

[Dr. Tammy, FNP/GNP-C]

Just curious about your journey through NP school via distance. I was unable to find another thread which exclusively provided a "lived experience" list for those going through, or have been through the distance ed process.

As you are aware, there has been much derogatory comments, false statements, and other inflammatory remarks regarding distance education which I dismiss as nothing more than manifestations of insecurity within themselves, all from my estimation, made by those who have never been through the distance education NP program process. Unfortunately, I feel that comments such as these from uninformed individuals might place distance education in a bad light for those considering such pathways to career advancement.

Since distance education is a proven legitimate and viable option for NP's, I'd really like to hear other's experiences.

For those of you doing the NP route via distance, what has been your experience? Where are you going? What do you like/not like about the program? Have any regrets about not taking the traditional path, like going to classes on another's schedule, paying extra money to take you there in light of gas prices, etc? Do you feel that your experience has short-changed you as compared to going through a traditional program? If you had to do it over, would you have chosen the traditional path?

[prairienp]

bragging about working ft? did i say it was easy?

as for working full time, it is pretty common. most "on-campus" msn students at duke work full time as well. i have known several mds and one lawyer who worked all the way through school. including my family md.

the online program at duke is "part-time" with 2 classes per semester 3-4 credits each for at least 7 semesters.

so for the past seven semesters my life has been as follows...

work 3-12hr days as an er nurse. clinical for 8 hours 1-2 days a week (lunch excluded), and pretty much solid studying the other days 8-12 hours each. one 3-day family vacation during that time (rented an umbrella and studied). i had to go part time at work for my 2 final semesters to fit in the weekday clinical time and i am working every weekend.

the 10 day or so semester breaks were for catching up on home and yard stuff. it takes me a week after exams to actually relax.

i could have never done it had my wife not pretty much taken over all the household responsibilities.

i have worked with fnp students over the past 20 years. yes, some students have worked "full time" while going to school. of all the students i have worked with they placed themselves in a very unhealthy situation. they did not learn as much or retain as well as those who worked part-time or not at all. this is not saying students who work full time are any less dedicated, the reality is, if you can attend school full time without working you will get a better education. this is assuming the student spends the time she would have been working to her fnp studies. we all know students in a variety of professions who worked full time while going to school and graduated. makes me think of the 95 yo patient who was healthy as a "horse" even though he smoked 2 packs per day and had a 6 pack every day. as far as he was concerned, everybody should be able smoke and drink and be healthy at 95. ok, maybe not the best comparison.

[ANPFNPGNP]

i have worked with fnp students over the past 20 years. yes, some students have worked "full time" while going to school. of all the students i have worked with they placed themselves in a very unhealthy situation. they did not learn as much or retain as well as those who worked part-time or not at all. this is not saying students who work full time are any less dedicated, the reality is, if you can attend school full time without working you will get a better education. this is assuming the student spends the time she would have been working to her fnp studies. we all know students in a variety of professions who worked full time while going to school and graduated. makes me think of the 95 yo patient who was healthy as a "horse" even though he smoked 2 packs per day and had a 6 pack every day. as far as he was concerned, everybody should be able smoke and drink and be healthy at 95. ok, maybe not the best comparison.

i couldn't agree more. it worries me that so many people expect to take the easy way out to get into our profession. when i say "easy" i mean that with a lot of schools, there's no gre requirement, you can work fulltime while attending school fulltime, everything can be done online, etc. what's even more worrisome is that schools are making it possible to do all of the above!

i can tell you this, when i went through my np program, i worked 1-2 weekends per month and that was overwhelming. i can't remember anyone else in the program working and they were amazed that i was able to do it. it would have been physically impossible to work part-time, much less full time. i completed 800 clinical hours in 8 months, plus i had to be on campus several times during the program.

[Jo Dirt]

Pros: You can do it at home.

You don't have to sit in a class with annoying people.

You don't have a teacher staring over your shoulder while you are taking a test.

Cons: I think it has been proven there is no interest in the cons (though the list is a lot longer.)

[psychonaut]

I have just completed my first two classes for the MSN-FNP program. The entire curriculum in on-line (minus clinicals, of course). Both classes were lecture only, with no clinical component.

In the end, I am pretty disappointed. Both instructors (one a DNP, the other a PhD) seemed to "phone it in". Neither engaged with the students in any significant manner. Minimal feedback was given on the graded assignments. Queries regarding vague course expectations had to be worded in great detail, as the initial response would invariably be "the syllabus contains everything you need to know." When a detailed query was submitted, it would be proven that was not the case.

My biggest disappointment was not with vague expectation and limited feedback; I've been a college student for many years, and I've learned not to sweat this sort of thing. Rather, my biggest disappointment was being denied the benefit of the instructors' knowledge, experience, and wisdom. The best part of both courses were the discussions that we students generated and engaged in, sharing our experience and opinions. It would have been very nice to get some participation from our doctorate-level professors.

For example, in the DNP-led class, some of us began discussions regarding the DNP role and future. It would have been invaluable for our DNP professor to share his/her personal experiences and opinions on this subject, from someone who has been through the process. Alas, not a peep on this (or any other subject).

In the other class, we (on our own) started discussions regarding nursing theory. Who better than a PhD nurse to educate on nursing theory than someone with that educational experience? Again, minimal-to-no discussion was offered by the professor.

To be clear, I have taken several on-line courses in many departments (these were my first two in nursing). I took one of the very first on-line courses offered by my university, and I was hooked, I loved it. I had several other positive on-line class experiences, including an English lit course that was so good I took the second semester of the course, even though it was not required for my degree. That professor (amongst others) truly solidified my appreciation for how an on-line course should be run.

I want to be very clear that my disappointment in my NP on-line education applies only to my experience at one school and these two classes. I will note that I have obtained syllabi for other courses (with clinical components)in the program from classmates further along, and I am not enthusiastic.

I applaud and envy those of you who feel you have gotten a good education through your on-line programs. I in no way wish to denigrate your education in comparison to a "brick-and-mortar" MSN program. However, for me personally, I may be heading for the decision that a clinical practice advanced degree education would be more beneficial for me if based on a real-time, in person setting.

[psychonaut]

Just how does a FNP student work full time and attend clinical while a full time student?

For my program, first semester students spend 45 clinical hours (total) doing physical assessment in a clinical setting. Second semester students spend 12-hours per week in clinical, third semester is 15 hours per week, and fourth semster is 21 hours per week. Is this far from the norm for other FNP programs?

Given these mild clinical requirements, with the added time bonus of on-line lectures, it would seem very manageable to work at least two twelve hour shifts per week, if not three. Seems similar to those nurses (unlike lazy me) who work a second job.

Whether this amount of clinical education is sufficient to produce a medical provider is another discussion altogether (although it clearly has been doing so for some time now).

[prairienp]

I couldn't agree more. It worries me that so many people expect to take the easy way out to get into our profession. When I say "easy" I mean that with a lot of schools, there's no GRE requirement, you can work fulltime while attending school fulltime, everything can be done online, etc. What's even more worrisome is that schools are making it possible to do all of the above!

/quote]

The GRE is NOT a good predictor of success for Nursing. I don't recall the date or the journal, the results were clear, GRE didn't mean a thing for success in graduate school (at least for nursing).

[Dr. Tammy, FNP/GNP-C]

I couldn't agree more. It worries me that so many people expect to take the easy way out to get into our profession. When I say "easy" I mean that with a lot of schools, there's no GRE requirement, you can work fulltime while attending school fulltime, everything can be done online, etc. What's even more worrisome is that schools are making it possible to do all of the above!

/quote]

The GRE is NOT a good predictor of success for Nursing. I don't recall the date or the journal, the results were clear, GRE didn't mean a thing for success in graduate school (at least for nursing).

You are correct, and you underscore the general lack of understanding of certain uninformed individuals. Dr. Robert Sternberg of Tufts started the challenge by examining the predictive value of the GRE as a weak predictive value of success in graduate level education. Since then, there have been numerous studies, all of which, at best indicate a weak corelation, and at worst, a negative coeeficient. These studies culminated in a metaanalysis review which clearly illustrates that the GRE is nothing more than junk science and those individuals and institutions who subscribe to junk instruments are doing a diservice to their students, alumni and profession.

For more information, check out "A comprehensive Meta-Analysis of the Predictive Validity of the Graduate Record Examination: Implications for Graduate Student Selection and Performance" (2001) Kuncel, Hezlett, Ones; American Psychological Association; 127;1

[ANPFNPGNP]

You are correct, and you underscore the general lack of understanding of certain uninformed individuals. Dr. Robert Sternberg of Tufts started the challenge by examining the predictive value of the GRE as a weak predictive value of success in graduate level education. Since then, there have been numerous studies, all of which, at best indicate a weak corelation, and at worst, a negative coeeficient. These studies culminated in a metaanalysis review which clearly illustrates that the GRE is nothing more than junk science and those individuals and institutions who subscribe to junk instruments are doing a diservice to their students, alumni and profession.

For more information, check out "A comprehensive Meta-Analysis of the Predictive Validity of the Graduate Record Examination: Implications for Graduate Student Selection and Performance" (2001) Kuncel, Hezlett, Ones; American Psychological Association; 127;1

I've never heard of a graduate school admitting anyone who hadn't taken the GRE or some other standardized test. Why is it that nursing programs have such minimum requirements for entry?

[psychonaut]

For more information, check out "A comprehensive Meta-Analysis of the Predictive Validity of the Graduate Record Examination: Implications for Graduate Student Selection and Performance" (2001) Kuncel, Hezlett, Ones; American Psychological Association; 127;1

The study cited concludes that the GRE is a valid predictor of several measures of graduate success:

In summary, the results of our investigation indicate that prior

criticisms of the GRE's validity as situationally specific and useless

are in error.

(p.176)

Our results indicate that the GRE is valid across disciplines for a variety of important criterion measures, and not just Ist-year GGPA, as is often assumed.

(p.177)

[Dr. Tammy, FNP/GNP-C]

The study cited concludes that the GRE is a valid predictor of several measures of graduate success:

(p.176)

(p.177)

Yeah, well check out the coefficients on page 175. A r>/=0.8 is the standard for a strong correlation. Not one of the criteria listed under GRE by way of unit-weighted composite nor adjusted with a weighted undergrad GPA exceeded 0.56. It's unclear why these results were not stated as same.

Perhaps they are inferring that a weak instrument is better than no instrument at all, "It is important to remember that small validities are still useful...The argument that one should reject a predictor because the variance accounted for is only 1%...is short sighted." Good point, even if it's weak, and only reprensents a generalization to 1%, it still has vallue. Please.

[7starbuck7]

I quit a NP program that was going mostly online (only the clinical classes met in person) to go to an on-campus program. I felt like the online component just increased the BS by 100%, lol. I am a cynic, but I think a lot of the theory classes are just BS. And I want to be taught pharm and patho in person and not just 100% case studies (which is what my original program was doing).

My adviser told me the pressure is on to make their program online as well. It brings in more $ and costs less to run. I think we will see a shift to most programs being online in some capacity.

The only people I know that have quit their jobs to go to NP school are those going full time and doing the program in two years. In my entire program there are only 3 people going full time.

I am going ultra part-time, taking one class per semester and it will take me a total of 4 years to finish. I do not plan on quitting my job to do it.

D

[ANPFNPGNP]

I know several UC Davis FNP students, all of which work full time.

That doesn't say much for their program.