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Euthanasia is a very touchy subject, especially within the medical field. As a healthcare advocate, it is our job as professionals to better the lives of our patients. What happens when there is nothing more you can do?
I understand, being a Home Health Aide that works a lot with Hospice, that comfort care is important. But truly, when a suffering patient looks to you to ease the pain what do you do? Should you apologize and say their is nothing more I can do?
I can hardly say no more treats to my cat when he gives puppy dog eyes, much less a patient dying alone of cancer. In my opinion, for what it is worth, Euthanasia is most certainly not murder and should never be referred to as such.
If Euthanasia was legal, but very strict in regulations and rules, it would be very beneficial to many terminally ill patients. This may be the only healthcare decision a patient makes within their life, and they should be allowed to make such a decision when conditions permit. We all have choices in this world, what gives you or I the right to take such choices away from someone in such a situation.
What is your opinion? Do you agree or disagree? Do you have a story, personal or not that pertains to this topic?
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Hi All! I didn't get a chance to read all the comments on this thread but wanted to share that I'm almost done reading "Stealth Euthanasia" by Ron Panzer. You can get it free at Hospice Patients Alliance: Patient Advocates. It's excellent. One of the things it mentions is that nurses are trained by for-profit hospice companies to see morphine as "helping patients to breathe" when it actually makes it harder for some to breathe. Everything the nurses are trained to say (about the dying process, about family being in denial if they question what's going on, etc) isn't always appropriate for all cases, but hospice decides it's time & the patient is sedated and basically killed.I believe this is what's happening will all my heart. Some hospices use stealth euthanasia; I've seen it myself. I also think it's criminal and unethical. I think if the patient wants it, fine. The patients I'm talking about never see it coming. One day they're talking and laughing, the next they're sedated and dead within weeks.
I have no idea how any nurse can partake in this. I'm not talking about compassionate death with dignity situations. I'm talking about the patient being a pain to the staff or family and before you know it, here comes the haldol and morphine.
If if you've never seen it, congratulations. I have and its traumatizing.
In taking a look at your link, you are talking about terminal sedation.
Which I've mentioned is controversial. From your link:
"Its 1994 Charter for Health Care Workers specifically warns against depriving the dying of the "possibility of living his own life, by reducing him to a state of unconsciousness not worthy of a human being. This is why the administration of narcotics for the sole purpose of depriving the dying person of a conscious end is a truly deplorable practice."
But I've never seen it used like it is characterized by you or by some of the comments in the link.
It isn't about a patient being a "pain" to the staff or family and then here comes the haldol and morphine.
Haldol and morphine can be used during the time of terminal agitation. Although Haldol is not used as much anymore because studies showed it really didn't help. (Not sure I agree with that).
But terminal sedation is used sparingly when pain is truly uncontrollable. And it takes the whole team to agree as well as the patient and the family. Someone just can't willy nilly do this. Basically it renders the patient unconscious using a Versed drip. At least in the area where I work. It doesn't kill them.
I gave a book to our hospice team a few years ago to show how far removed we are in the day to day ideas regarding end of life issues. A CNA reported two nurses who she thought killed a patient. Her reasoning was faulty and fortunately the nurses were exonerated but the book sure let me know how differently people think about this and how little knowledge some of them have.
Some people think taking off the 02 is murder. Or stopping the force-feeding of a dying patient by a misinformed family is murder.
Hi All! I didn't get a chance to read all the comments on this thread but wanted to share that I'm almost done reading "Stealth Euthanasia" by Ron Panzer. You can get it free at Hospice Patients Alliance: Patient Advocates. It's excellent. One of the things it mentions is that nurses are trained by for-profit hospice companies to see morphine as "helping patients to breathe" when it actually makes it harder for some to breathe. Everything the nurses are trained to say (about the dying process, about family being in denial if they question what's going on, etc) isn't always appropriate for all cases, but hospice decides it's time & the patient is sedated and basically killed.I believe this is what's happening will all my heart. Some hospices use stealth euthanasia; I've seen it myself. I also think it's criminal and unethical. I think if the patient wants it, fine. The patients I'm talking about never see it coming. One day they're talking and laughing, the next they're sedated and dead within weeks.
I have no idea how any nurse can partake in this. I'm not talking about compassionate death with dignity situations. I'm talking about the patient being a pain to the staff or family and before you know it, here comes the haldol and morphine.
If if you've never seen it, congratulations. I have and its traumatizing.
Like Spidey said, that's terminal sedation and it is used judiciously when needed due to intractable pain, for example.
Also think about what you're saying here: what for-profit hospice would want to kill their patients earlier? That's just not logical. Hospice makes money the longer people are on service.
Sent from my iPhone -- blame all errors on spellcheck
The answer is there are always more patients that "qualify" for hospice.
Also, It's an easy way for hospice to keep their days of service down so it doesn't look like they're admitting people who don't really need it.
I know it's terminal sedation. It's used inappropriately at times. Period. Look online. Google it. There are hundreds, if not thousands of stories. Some by doctors or nurses who had it happen to their family member.
I'm all for death with dignity. I'm against stealth euthanasia.
The answer is there are always more patients that "qualify" for hospice.Also, It's an easy way for hospice to keep their days of service down so it doesn't look like they're admitting people who don't really need it.
I know it's terminal sedation. It's used inappropriately at times. Period. Look online. Google it. There are hundreds, if not thousands of stories. Some by doctors or nurses who had it happen to their family member.
I'm all for death with dignity. I'm against stealth euthanasia.
The nurses and drs are standing by while the hospice nurse comes in and sedates their talking laughing loved one to death? There wasn't any agitation, they just walked in and killed them deceitfully? And those doctors and nurses stood by mute and helpless? Thousands of stories?
Yeah but . . . . . denying an individual the chance to get married and actively ending another person's life don't have much to do with each other.Marriage vs killing someone just isn't the same.
Whether you call the killing of someone "murder" or not.
Obviously I am in agreement with ixchel in regards to this. However, I would not be the one to push the IV med.
Where gay marriage and anti-euthanasia do dovetail is that both are social issues BECAUSE of religious ideology. Without antipathy from certain religious sectors, these two issues wouldn't be issues at all -- in a public kind of way. You'd marry who you loved and have the option for euthanasia if you wanted it. You'd be free to think ewww gross when two guys marry and have palpitations at the very idea of euthanasia, and that would be your perfect right, no one with alternate values could force or prevent YOU from what felt best for you. The problem with religious stuff getting entwined in public policy is that my daughter and daughter-in-law could not get married because someone ELSE thought it was wrong, and THEIR values were forced upon the girls.
I'd say 'killing someone' is only one way to describe euthanasia, or to think about it. It's not the ONLY way, or even the RIGHT way, except for you and those who share your values. I would use different words because the concept of euthanasia in my mind focuses around the cessation of suffering, not 'killing'.
We're just told we don't belong in health care and to get out.
Whoever is telling you this is wrong.
How could having anti-euthanasia values as being incompatible with health care?
It's an unkind and stupid thing to say. This is as 'wrong' as making birth control against the law because my religious faith says so. What we need is freedom to practice or cherish our personal values, and not be restricted by value systems we do not . . . well, value :)
This isn't an argument for a free for all, amoral rampage through life, either. Our society and most of the developing world have clear and universal (almost) ethics that have developed over time, with our without religious influence. Humanity has had morals as long as we've been human, and they've gotten a lot more civilized since the ancient Hebrews, which is why we don't stone people for working on the Sabbath any more :) There's a solid 'backbone' of moral values, very basic values, and they are already 'law'. Anything more particular than that becomes foisting my personal values onto you, restricting your expression unfairly.
I can't say I'd enjoy it . . . but if anyone ever says something like your quote in front of me, I may have to hurt their feelings.
The answer is there are always more patients that "qualify" for hospice.Also, It's an easy way for hospice to keep their days of service down so it doesn't look like they're admitting people who don't really need it.
I know it's terminal sedation. It's used inappropriately at times. Period. Look online. Google it. There are hundreds, if not thousands of stories. Some by doctors or nurses who had it happen to their family member.
I'm all for death with dignity. I'm against stealth euthanasia.
I would be too, if I ever suspected it was happening. I worked six and a half years in oncology, and we did 'comfort care' for the whole hospital. I had some Hospice cases as a HH RN.
The only patients I've known to be made unconscious from narcotics are those who could not be both relieved of pain and conscious at the same time. That is a HORRID place to be, for the patient and the family. I've seen people fight the meds to stay conscious and involved as long as they could, but haven't seen laughing and talking people knocked out and terminally sedated 'against their will' or the family's will, not once.
Since anything CAN happen, I believe you and all you have to do is witness something like that ONCE and be forever changed, inside. Even so, as atrocious as it is, it's really not an 'issue' as your linked article makes it out to be. That should be good news, right?
I think if we are completely honest as nurses, we have witnessed (or heard about, read the chart of) doctors, nurses and patients cooperate to hasten death when suffering is unbearable. One instance was of an intubated man, 'locked in', who had no hope of recovery. With his family all around him and him blinking YES and NO very clearly and with staff witnesses, extubate him and give him 10mg of morphine every five minutes until it was no longer necessary. I heard this straight from an ICU nurse who I used to chat with. It didn't sound like they made a habit of doing this, but it wasn't a huge big deal either. It was probably illegal as hell to boot. It went right over my head at the time, and later I thought about it -- the patient was euthanized, period.
THANK YOU for your understanding, Gooselady.
RE: the locked in person, I think that's awesome. I think it's the patient's right and was a merciful, unselfish move on the part of the staff and family. If I end up in that position Id like to do the same thing, asap.
For anyone thinking I'm exaggerating or being dramatic please visit Hospice Patients Alliance: Patient Advocates . I am not affiliated with them in any way. I just wish I had found them sooner.
Since anything CAN happen, I believe you and all you have to do is witness something like that ONCE and be forever changed, inside. Even so, as atrocious as it is, it's really not an 'issue' as your linked article makes it out to be. That should be good news, right?
If a nurse really does witness other nurses purposefully sedating an alert and oriented hospice patient, and then administer excessive morphine in order to "kill" them, that nurse better darn well call the police asap.
If stirfried truly witnesses what he/she said he/she did (which I doubt), it strikes me as obscene the authorities were not notified.
And if there really were some nefarious plot brewing in the hospice industry (there isn't), why on earth would that plot be to kill their patients quickly? As far as nefarious plots go, that one makes no sense. You can't bill or fill the beds with dead bodies.
All reasons I doubt this scenario ever happened at all. And I know for a fact that it is not an "issue" in the industry.
If a nurse really does witness other nurses purposefully sedating an alert and oriented hospice patient, and then administer excessive morphine in order to "kill" them, that nurse better darn well call the police asap.If stirfried truly witnesses what he/she said he/she did (which I doubt), it strikes me as obscene the authorities were not notified.
And if there really were some nefarious plot brewing in the hospice industry (there isn't), why on earth would that plot be to kill their patients quickly? As far as nefarious plots go, that one makes no sense. You can't bill or fill the beds with dead bodies.
All reasons I doubt this scenario ever happened at all. And I know for a fact that it is not an "issue" in the industry.
Re the billing in of itself, HH Hospice is not FFS, the reimbursement model is different than inpatient and there are certain *scenarios* that will be profitable, break even, and be a loss. Potentially it could be manipulated amd fraud exists in home care (we've got that to thank for all of the excessive paperwork required).
Re the billing in of itself, HH Hospice is not FFS, the reimbursement model is different than inpatient and there are certain *scenarios* that will be profitable, break even, and be a loss. Potentially it could be manipulated amd fraud exists in home care (we've got that to thank for all of the excessive paperwork required).
Im sure fraud does happen in hospice,too.
But saying hospice facilities are knocking alert hospice patients uncouncious with morphine because they're a handful.... or saying they purposefully cultivate a culture of death is alarmist. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. The links provided by a previous poster only link to some rather questionable blogs that have an obvious axe to grind. I am not at all convinced this is happening.
toomuchbaloney
16,080 Posts
If you observed health professionals and hospitals euthanizing patients because they were a bother and did not report this to authorities you should be ashamed.
Personally, I have worked in and around hospice for years, in the field and in the acute care hospital setting in a couple of different facilities and several states. I have NEVER observed what you are describing as happening with patients relative to "stealth euthanasia".
Yeah, probably most experienced hospice nurses have encountered patients who were not specifically helped with addition of Morphine to their POC, they are few and very very far between, in my experience. Your characterization of how, when, and why MS is used is poorly informed and suggests that you don't have any hospice experience yourself.
If you were intending to inflame the hospice professionals on this thread with the suggestion that we are not critically thinking professionals but are, rather, brainwashed bots of the "for profit" hospice industry making decisions about when to sedate and kill our patients then you have succeeded with this one.