Eating your young

Beth's granddaughter · Mar 27, 2006

the number one complaint i get from both current and former nursing students is that the instructors "eat their young":o . instructors are often described as out of touch, unfair and often unstable. if you go over to the student forums and read some of the things that are being written about you as a group you might be shocked. everyone i have met has a horror story about at least one instructor during nursing school:devil: . why is no one addressing this? i understand that there is a shortage of instructors in nursing schools but does this mean we should accept substandard and occasionally psychotic behavior? i know that patient safety is number one, but... how are you teaching people to be nurses if anyone who stands out is singled out and persecuted? i have been told that the best way to get through nursing school is to say nothing and be as invisible as possible. i have been told this over and over again by graduates across the country. anyone who stands out is terrorized by the instructors and is often driven out of the program. what is the point of this? can anyone give me a legitimate reason for this recurrent behavior?

Hi ABQGRANT.

By saying "everyone" you have met has a horror story about a nursing instructor is hereby proven untrue, because now you have met me online, and all my nursing instructors were and still are my greatest mentors and examples. They cared about me more than many nurse managers and coworkers.

Oddly, I can reword your post and say that there are some fairly "substandard" and "psychotic" nursing students out there... (lol) But that does not mean every student I meet is out to "eat the elderly"...

I certainly have no personal intention to "eat" my young, but I do sincerely want them to put forth their best effort and learn to use critical thinking skills. I want to know that the patients who are cared for by my students and former students will have no reason to feel they have received substandard care because their nurse did not apply their best effort to learn while in nursing school. Being hard on a student (grading, counseling, disciplining) for substandard work is not the same as instructors eating their young.

Out of curiosity, are you a nursing instructor? Whether or not you are, if you are a nursing leader in any field, including education, then you have probably had some training in drilling down to the core of the problem; and not just listening to and passing along gossip from those who are disgruntled or who have a bad attitude. And you probably already know that accurate documentation is a must when bringing any problem to the attention of others and truly seeking for solutions. (Ah, don't we nurses love documentation?) Your allegations do not have any sort of documentation, and your words make it sound like no one across the country is getting a decent nursing education.

For instance, what exactly do you mean by "anyone who stands out is singled out and persecuted"? I have many students who stand out, and they shine like morning stars! I am so proud of them! Yes, I single them out; no, I do not persecute them. Their behaviors are compliant with rules, their study habits are obviously well-honed, their grades reflect their learning, and their patient care decisions show outstanding critical thinking.

Can you provide me with legitimate documentation that these outrageous behaviors by instructors are taking place? (documentation should include names, dates, situations.) How about doing a formal nursing study by conducting a survey of graduates from nursing schools across the country. You could ask a random 5% from every graduating class for the last 10 years from every school, including diploma programs, universities, and private schools. Maybe you could ask the graduates some qualitative questions like, "In what way do you feel your nursing instructors ate their young? List each instructor individually and give specific examples. Did your instructors ever teach you anything worth learning? List each instructor and give specific examples." Perhaps you could look at the instructor evaluations that the institutions themselves require from every course. Does the institution base its hiring / rehiring practices on these evaluations? Is there remediation when a teacher is doing substandard work? Is the institution accredited? Does the state Board of Nursing have any say in the development of the curricula of the various programs in the state to assure it is current? Does the school answer to any state legislation or to the Board of Nursing for its outcomes? What is the NCLEX pass rate of the school?

I feel a study like that would be worth my attention. However, information gathered from a casual glance at a student nursing forum will not yield valid data. (Can you tell me why it will not yield valid data?)

VickyRN, MSN, DNP, RN · Mar 27, 2006

To the OP, your tone of posting is very accusatory, with "you" statements and broad generalizations. This takes away from your credibility as a poster. I hope when you get into nursing school, that you don't present yourself with this sort of accusatory, "chip on your shoulder" attititude towards your instructors. Respect and a positive attiitude go a long way. That said, I will now get off my soapbox.

Just remember to take any personal account you read on a public Internet board with a big grain of salt. There are always two sides to every situation - in the posts you are only hearing one side. Most often, you will never hear the "Rest of the Story" (as Paul Harvey would say).

One case in particular comes to mind. We had a poster who fairly regularly would diss her school of nursing and instructors on this site, with detailed complaints. In time, her entire class of nursing students (and instructor) caught on to her shenanigans. Her instructor happened to be in one of my online graduate nursing classes and related to me that most of what this student posted was grossly distorted or an outright lie. Of course, you will never hear "their" side of the story on this site...

Without a doubt, nursing school is very difficult, with very high standards. Schools of nursing must make certain that their graduates are safe, capable, and competent. The instructor's job is not only to "train up" new nurses, but to safeguard the public as well. An unfortunate fact is that some students, no matter how sincere, are not going to meet the standards. And often these students will not take responsibility or accountability for their actions or omissions, but will scapegoat the instructor or their school.

99_99africa · Mar 27, 2006

People who enter nuring in our country have an attitude that standards and values must be according to their practice and not ours. As I have seen many people go through our wards, they need you to teach with kid gloves. To go over and over material, to take on their worries. To all nurses educators keep shining as I am a-wanna-be-nurse-educator.

hlfpnt, BSN, RN · Mar 27, 2006

the number one complaint i get from both current and former nursing students is that the instructors "eat their young":o . instructors are often described as out of touch, unfair and often unstable. if you go over to the student forums and read some of the things that are being written about you as a group you might be shocked. everyone i have met has a horror story about at least one instructor during nursing school:devil: . why is no one addressing this? i understand that there is a shortage of instructors in nursing schools but does this mean we should accept substandard and occasionally psychotic behavior? i know that patient safety is number one, but... how are you teaching people to be nurses if anyone who stands out is singled out and persecuted? i have been told that the best way to get through nursing school is to say nothing and be as invisible as possible. i have been told this over and over again by graduates across the country. anyone who stands out is terrorized by the instructors and is often driven out of the program. what is the point of this? can anyone give me a legitimate reason for this recurrent behavior?

This is just my 2 cents & probably not worth much more than that, but I've not found any "horror" in my instructors. Some are a little bit more pickier than others, but not anything I can't handle. I also have not seen any "persecution" or "psychotic" behavior in my program. I also don't know anyone who has been "terrorized". I've also learned that if a student stays "invisible" they WILL miss opportunities to learn. Our instructors don't babysit us, they assist us in learning & I've not met one yet whose main interest is to see students fail. Maybe the OP should investigate for themselves & not go so much on hearsay..... the experience of nursing school, like anything else in life, is personal--it's what you make of it.

llg, PhD, RN · Mar 27, 2006

How many students have you encountered who are failing in school who admit that their performance is deserving of a failing grade? Not many -- and when you do, it is like a breath of fresh air. Those are usually the ones "worth saving."

Most struggling students blame their instructors -- often glossing over their own shortcomings and magnifying every little imperfection in the instructor. Teachers are expected to be 100% perfect, while every error that the student makes is supposed to be overlooked and/or tolerated.

In addition, some nursing students have never had to live up to high standards before. As children, they went to schools that awarded prizes to "every student who participated" and never had to face a situation in which only the students who did better than average were rewarded. They never had to confront their own weaknesses before and master them. Unfortunately for them, the "real world" is not as tolerant of their weaknesses as were their childhood nurturers. The "real world" of professional standards and patient expectations demand that the students perform at a high level. Some students struggle ... and then can't emotionally handle the fact that they are not doing well and look for someone else to blame.

Certainly there are some bad instructors out there -- but many of the stories you read here and elsewhere are not the "whole truth." You are only reading 1 side of the story, and sometimes that is the side of the student is looking for someone else to blame for her poor school performance.

llg

tookewlandy · Mar 28, 2006

I haven't started actually nursing courses yet so i cant say for sure. But it is scary some of the posts i see on here about their nursing instructors. I even heard that at the school i am going to that if they don't like you then you fail and it scares me so much. I already decided that i am gonna be quiet and not stand out as much s possible. But that may not work for me as i am for 1- Male 2- 6'4 so I'm hard to miss 3- I love to ask questions, but since i hear all these horror stories i decided if i don't know something ill try my best to figure it out myself and not bother the instructor. I'm not saying that this is true that they do "eat there young" but i do see alot of stories about such things and its scary. Should i be prepared to be torn and ripped to shred's by my instructor.

hlfpnt, BSN, RN · Mar 28, 2006

To tookewlandy:

Personally, I think you should enter your program prepared to learn & get all you can out of it. Don't pass up any opportunities to learn. Nursing school is what you choose to make of it, this is your future. Work hard, do your best and never lose sight of your goal.

Kim O'Therapy, BSN, RN · Mar 28, 2006

How many students have you encountered who are failing in school who admit that their performance is deserving of a failing grade? Not many -- and when you do, it is like a breath of fresh air. Those are usually the ones "worth saving."
Most struggling students blame their instructors -- often glossing over their own shortcomings and magnifying every little imperfection in the instructor. Teachers are expected to be 100% perfect, while every error that the student makes is supposed to be overlooked and/or tolerated.
In addition, some nursing students have never had to live up to high standards before. As children, they went to schools that awarded prizes to "every student who participated" and never had to face a situation in which only the students who did better than average were rewarded. They never had to confront their own weaknesses before and master them. Unfortunately for them, the "real world" is not as tolerant of their weaknesses as were their childhood nurturers. The "real world" of professional standards and patient expectations demand that the students perform at a high level. Some students struggle ... and then can't emotionally handle the fact that they are not doing well and look for someone else to blame.
Certainly there are some bad instructors out there -- but many of the stories you read here and elsewhere are not the "whole truth." You are only reading 1 side of the story, and sometimes that is the side of the student is looking for someone else to blame for her poor school performance.
llg

Ahhhh, yes, the "self-esteem" generation!

Kelly_the_Great · Mar 29, 2006

Hello,

Thought I'd chime in too, to give a student (LVN-BSN) and a vocational nurse's perspective that's been around for a little while. :)

First, I think "nurses eat their young" has become an overused, worn-out, cope-out that is either 1.) used by new nurses or students that are having to face the harsh "realities" of actually being/becoming a nurse versus their romanticized ideals of nursing or 2.) it is used by an older nurse who wants to appear "cool" and "relatable" (sp???) to the students/younger nurses.

Nurses do not discriminate amongst their victims; they are "mean" to young and old alike. The fact of the matter is, nurses are mean to each other period. Instead of giving credence to blanket statements that totally villainize (sp???) one group of people and allows for the "victim hood" of another, why not encourage acceptance of responsibility for our actions? I think intraprofessional relations, including therapeutic communication and nurses "caring" for nurses, assertiveness training, etc. should be a part of nursing's curricula. However, I guess I'm just wishfully thinking (rambling too).

Back to the original post, "substandard and occasionally psychotic behavior" in our instructors..Do I believe this is a rampant epidemic within nursing academia??? No. Do I believe it occasionally happens to the extent it happens within other professions in the general population??? Yes, probably so.

The culture of nursing has got its problems but I think explaining it all away with clichés and blanket statements is not the way to solve it.

tookewlandy · Mar 29, 2006

You do hear this alot but was more concerend because my school people have said they have a reputation of being hard to get along with and yada yada yada. I had a talk with my mther who went to the same school i am attending, and she said yes it was hard and they were tough but she said that Nurse educators have to be that way because they cant just send people who slide though without really knowing what they are doing into the world, they got to make sure that the student knows what they are doing because one day lives are gonan be in there hands. ANd when there is that kind of responsibility then there really is no room for error and the ones who make it through do because they have what it takes and the ones that dont just dont have it or arent ready for it

lberghood · Mar 29, 2006

I agree with most of what i've read here. Nursing school is hard and nursing is not for everyone. There are some bad instructors and there are some bad nurses. There are also a lot of good ones, and really great ones. Nursing is a difficult and stressful and relatively young profession. One thing that i am starting to realize is, that we as a profession, can work together to make a difference in how we are percieved and how we are treated. We, as a profession, are very powerful. We provide a much needed service to the world and need to maintain high standards to continue to elevate our profession and serve humanity. One of my personal observations of my profession is that nurses really do complain a lot but rarely do anything about it and when offered solutions are resistant to them I am not trying to blame anyone or get anyone offended and i myself am guilty of this behavior at times (as anyone who is human is) I have however also become hopeful in much of what i have read lately, in the research that is being done and changes that i see happening. ie shared governance at hospitals, california nurse:patient ratios, evidence based parctice. This may have been around for a long time but i was never aware of it until recently and have found a new sense of pride in the profession that i have chosen for myself

I loved some of the comments about the "self-esteem" generation. This is so evident today in our society not only in nursing but everywhere. Look at all of the ridiculous lawsuits. I don't know how it is in other cultures but in america is rampant and it really makes us look stupid. (we don't know that coffee is hot so if there is not a warning, we sue and get rewarded with millions of dollars)

While self-esteem is vital to one's growth and development as a person it has gone too far and it seems as though we have missed the boat and not taught people that just because they were born and exist doesn't mean that they will excel in everything and where is the concept of accountability in all of this??????????

In my opinion we would do far better off as a nation to teach people how to communicate, be accountable, and be assertive than to try to give people self esteem Self esteem would come naturally to those who developed those skills

I know that i went off of the topic but couldn't help myself. My nursing instructors did a very good job of educating me and while they were tough at times they had to be to prepare me for the enormous responibilities that lie ahead in my future career.

I have thought about the possibility of taking up nursing education myself, god knows we are in desperate need and i would like to thank all of those who are giving of themselves in this much needed area. The best thing that we can do for the world is to help our nursing students become good nurses. After all, they will be the ones taking care of us , right?