Does prestige of program matter?

TheDudeWithTheBigDog, ADN, RN · May 27, 2020

16 hours ago, blueskiesandsunshine.PRN said:
I would encourage you to verify the information your school provides on NCLEX pass rates with the official state BON data on your school's pass rates. I have seen quite misleading advertisements for for-profit diploma mills that tout high pass rates, but in fact the state's BON report speaks a much different story.

Usually it's accurate and confirmed by the state BON. But that doesn't mean it isn't misleading. There's way more information people need to look into than just pass rates and CCNE accreditation. The rest of this post is assuming the school IS CCNE accreditied.

A common practice now is exit exams. That exam that makes sure you've learned enough to graduate. Isn't that exactly what the final you just took was for since every class builds on what you leaned in the semester before? Here's the thing, there's evidence that certain minimum scores predict better outcomes. Now, you've completed the credits, you graduated. You're a part of that statistic about your program's graduation rate. But you only got a 58 instead of a 60 on your exit exam. You didn't complete your nursing program, so you don't sit for your boards. Most schools will give you a couple attempts, but they won't send your information to the state unless you score high enough.

So what's this mean? You have a 98% graduation rate and a 98% NCLEX pass rate. Sounds like a great school. But when you look into the numbers, 49 out of 50 students graduated. But 10 graduates got below the minimum on their exit exam. So only 39 of those students were allowed to sit for their boards, and 1 person failed. 10 of those graduates didn't even exist on that NCLEX pass rate. So the information that you're not seeing is that out of 49 graduates, only 78% got licensed as an RN. Oh, and non-profit schools aren't required to give that exact information like for-profit schools are.

And going a little off topic from your post, but it came up in this thread: Really, the difference between a for-profit and a non-profit is marketing. Ultimately, yeah, the non-profit spends a bigger percent on their revenue on your education, but their revenue is also lower. The dollar amount that the two types spend on your education is actually pretty close to the same. They know people misunderstand "non-profit" as meaning they don't make money. Non-profit just means that they have a limit to what they can report in profits every year compared to their revenue. They solve that in 2 ways: Either they invest it directly into building up the school, which increases their federal funding every year. Or they invest in stocks and bonds, which increases their revenue every year. All of this, by law, has to be public information. You can look up any non-profit's tax forms that they filed. Though, not every school is required to make that public. Duke, the school that came up in this thread, you can see where they gained almost a billion dollars in one year. But people don't know to look that up, they just see non-profit, they're not making billions off of my tuition. They have staff making in the millions every year.

EVERYTHING told to you has a marketing reason. And yes, that includes that page that SO MANY nursing schools have where they compare their program to a for-profit school.

Watch The Simpsons. Find the episode where marge became a real estate agent. It's season 9, episode 9. Listen to how he teaches her the difference between the trooooth, and THE TRUTH! That difference is why there's such a huge bias against for-profit schools. You're not being lied to about any information given to you, but you're being presented in a way that makes the non-profit automatically seem like a better choice.

blueskiesandsunshine.prn · May 27, 2020

58 minutes ago, TheDudeWithTheBigDog said:
A common practice now is exit exams. That exam that makes sure you've learned enough to graduate. Isn't that exactly what the final you just took was for since every class builds on what you leaned in the semester before? Here's the thing, there's evidence that certain minimum scores predict better outcomes. Now, you've completed the credits, you graduated. You're a part of that statistic about your program's graduation rate. But you only got a 58 instead of a 60 on your exit exam. You didn't complete your nursing program, so you don't sit for your boards. Most schools will give you a couple attempts, but they won't send your information to the state unless you score high enough.

My school doesn’t administer exit exams. Every graduate sits for the NCLEX. What’s the rationale behind schools giving these exit exams? I don’t think it’s a common practice in my area because I’ve never heard of it.

NICU_Nurse_Casti, BSN, RN · May 27, 2020

Just now, blueskiesandsunshine.PRN said:
My school doesn’t administer exit exams. Every graduate sits for the NCLEX. What’s the rationale behind schools giving these exit exams? I don’t think it’s a common practice in my area because I’ve never heard of it.

The purpose of the exit exam is to help keep the school's NCLEX pass rate up. The exit exams are meant to predict the probability of passing the NCLEX. So, if someone does not score well, the school may feel the student is not ready to sit for the NCLEX or they have a low probability of passing, which would risk lowering the school's pass rate.

blueskiesandsunshine.prn · May 27, 2020

1 minute ago, Future_NICU_Nurse_Casti said:
The purpose of the exit exam is to help keep the school's NCLEX pass rate up. The exit exams are meant to predict the probability of passing the NCLEX. So, if someone does not score well, the school may feel the student is not ready to sit for the NCLEX or they have a low probability of passing, which would risk lowering the school's pass rate.

So, it’s safe to say, a school with a high pass rate that does not administer exit exams would be a “better” program (in terms of preparedness for the NCLEX) than one that selectively only sends those students who are fully prepared to sit for the boards, in a way “gerrymandering” their pass rates?

I don’t see how it’s fair for a nursing student to be excluded from taking the NCLEX based on their performance on one exam, IMO.

NICU_Nurse_Casti, BSN, RN · May 27, 2020

Just now, blueskiesandsunshine.PRN said:
So, it’s safe to say, a school with a high pass rate that does not administer exit exams would be a “better” program (in terms of preparedness for the NCLEX) than one that selectively only sends those students who are fully prepared to sit for the boards, in a way “gerrymandering” their pass rates?
I don’t see how it’s fair for a nursing student to be excluded from taking the NCLEX based on their performance on one exam, IMO.

I do not know if "better" is the right word... Ideally, every student should be ready to pass the NCLEX upon graduation, but this is not always the case. I think it is safe to say that a school that does not require an exit exam and still has a high pass rate is a solid school. My school requires we take the ATI Comprehensive Predictor and we have to pass with a 95% probability of passing the NCLEX, which comes out to like a 75-ish% on the exam. Every program has their own way of doing things. Exit exams are just another thing to take into consideration.

blueskiesandsunshine.prn · May 27, 2020

1 hour ago, Future_NICU_Nurse_Casti said:
Ideally, every student should be ready to pass the NCLEX upon graduation, but this is not always the case.

I think a school should be required to report if they manipulate their pass rates using exit exams. Because, honestly, if a student isn't ready to pass the NCLEX upon graduation but has made it through the school's program...I would say the blame should fall more upon the institution. How do they pass a student then deem them unfit to take the NCLEX simply to bolster their scores? I completely agree with the concept of an exit exam in terms of setting a benchmark for the student on which she can guide how much/what specific disciplines she. needs to focus on for the actual NCLEX...but to preclude students from taking the boards based on this one test is absurd. And to try to pass off NCLEX pass rates just based on the number of people who took it is borderline immoral IMHO. If it were a fail rate, I would understand. But it's a PASS rate. Should be based on how many from the graduating class as a whole took & passed the NCLEX on their first - including those students who didn't take the exam whether it be due to their school's policy or their own decision (there is a girl who graduated from my university who didn't take the NCLEX until 8 months after she graduated because she got married, yet looking at the student count she was still added into the "total number of NCLEX eligible graduates" on my School of Nursing's data sheet)

NICU_Nurse_Casti, BSN, RN · May 28, 2020

19 hours ago, blueskiesandsunshine.PRN said:
I think a school should be required to report if they manipulate their pass rates using exit exams. Because, honestly, if a student isn't ready to pass the NCLEX upon graduation but has made it through the school's program...I would say the blame should fall more upon the institution. How do they pass a student then deem them unfit to take the NCLEX simply to bolster their scores? I completely agree with the concept of an exit exam in terms of setting a benchmark for the student on which she can guide how much/what specific disciplines she. needs to focus on for the actual NCLEX...but to preclude students from taking the boards based on this one test is absurd. And to try to pass off NCLEX pass rates just based on the number of people who took it is borderline immoral IMHO. If it were a fail rate, I would understand. But it's a PASS rate. Should be based on how many from the graduating class as a whole took & passed the NCLEX on their first - including those students who didn't take the exam whether it be due to their school's policy or their own decision (there is a girl who graduated from my university who didn't take the NCLEX until 8 months after she graduated because she got married, yet looking at the student count she was still added into the "total number of NCLEX eligible graduates" on my School of Nursing's data sheet)

I agree that anyone who graduates a nursing program should be prepared to sit for the NCLEX. But not all programs are created equal. We already know this. That is why we see schools get placed on probation or shut down for having horrible pass rates. That being said, part of the responsibility falls on the student to be prepared. In our curriculum, we have not taken a MedSurg lecture in two quarters. So, for those who have not been reviewing MedSurg information, they would likely struggle on the NCLEX. The exit exam is meant to get us prepared for the NCLEX by reviewing everything we have learned in school, as well as gauge our probability of passing. So, it serves a purpose outside the realm of the making the school look good.

I would also have to disagree with listing people who did not take the exam into the pass rate for first time test takers. Sure, you can have a separate list of eligible graduates. I understand life happens and people make decisions to hold off on taking the exam so they can study more or whatever reason they may have. But it does not make sense to include someone who has not taken the test in the pass rate statistics for first time test takers.

I agree it is not a perfect system. In fact, I would like to see a major overhaul of nursing education, in general. But I do think exit exams can be a useful tool for students, as well as the school.

FullGlass, BSN, MSN, NP · May 28, 2020

I want to weigh in on a couple of topics: 1) NCLEX pass rate and 2) future opportunities

1) NCLEX pass rate. I went to Hopkins and in my opinion, it is the community college ADN programs that do the best job of preparing students for NCLEX. The community colleges offer great instruction and seem to focus on preparing students to take and pass the NCLEX. Hopkins did not; they just figured we were smart enough to figure out how to pass NCLEX.

So, if you are worried about passing the NCLEX, and want to save money, the best choice is an ADN program, hands down. Then do an RN bridge program, which your employer will probably pay for.

2) Career opportunities. Nursing schools that are part of a medical and hospital complex are going to provide students with more opportunities. A student at Hopkins, U of Maryland Baltimore, Duke, Yale, UCLA, etc is going to get a chance to do perform clinical rotations at fantastic hospitals affiliated with their nursing school. These students are also going to get preferential hiring at that hospital and first dibs at special hiring programs, as well as nurse residency and fellowship programs. In addition, a BSN from these schools is going to have first dibs at getting into the school's NP or other programs. For example, pretty much every Hopkins BSN student with decent GPA who wanted to enter the NP program was accepted.

3) Something else to consider: some of my fellow Hopkins NP students worked at Hopkins as RNs. They were able to attend the Hopkins NP program for free or greatly reduced tuition, if they were accepted into the program. So for RNs planning to become NPs in the future, it might pay off to get a job in a hospital with an affiliated nursing school. Another benefit of Hopkins employees was an incredible tuition break if their children went to any Hopkins college or grad school.

turtlesRcool · May 28, 2020

1 hour ago, FullGlass said:
2) Career opportunities. Nursing schools that are part of a medical and hospital complex are going to provide students with more opportunities. A student at Hopkins, U of Maryland Baltimore, Duke, Yale, UCLA, etc is going to get a chance to do perform clinical rotations at fantastic hospitals affiliated with their nursing school. These students are also going to get preferential hiring at that hospital and first dibs at special hiring programs, as well as nurse residency and fellowship programs. In addition, a BSN from these schools is going to have first dibs at getting into the school's NP or other programs. For example, pretty much every Hopkins BSN student with decent GPA who wanted to enter the NP program was accepted.

Just wanted to point out that some of those schools do not have BSN programs at all. Yale school of nursing, for example, is strictly a grad school. They do have an entry MSN track for those with a previous degree where the first year is basically an ABSN, but you can't exit the program after that first year with a Yale degree (those who are already RNs enter the program in the second year). Undergrads from other nursing schools regularly use Yale New Haven Hospital for clinical rotations.

ad2020 · May 28, 2020

1 hour ago, FullGlass said:
I want to weigh in on a couple of topics: 1) NCLEX pass rate and 2) future opportunities
1) NCLEX pass rate. I went to Hopkins and in my opinion, it is the community college ADN programs that do the best job of preparing students for NCLEX. The community colleges offer great instruction and seem to focus on preparing students to take and pass the NCLEX. Hopkins did not; they just figured we were smart enough to figure out how to pass NCLEX.
So, if you are worried about passing the NCLEX, and want to save money, the best choice is an ADN program, hands down. Then do an RN bridge program, which your employer will probably pay for.
2) Career opportunities. Nursing schools that are part of a medical and hospital complex are going to provide students with more opportunities. A student at Hopkins, U of Maryland Baltimore, Duke, Yale, UCLA, etc is going to get a chance to do perform clinical rotations at fantastic hospitals affiliated with their nursing school. These students are also going to get preferential hiring at that hospital and first dibs at special hiring programs, as well as nurse residency and fellowship programs. In addition, a BSN from these schools is going to have first dibs at getting into the school's NP or other programs. For example, pretty much every Hopkins BSN student with decent GPA who wanted to enter the NP program was accepted.
3) Something else to consider: some of my fellow Hopkins NP students worked at Hopkins as RNs. They were able to attend the Hopkins NP program for free or greatly reduced tuition, if they were accepted into the program. So for RNs planning to become NPs in the future, it might pay off to get a job in a hospital with an affiliated nursing school. Another benefit of Hopkins employees was an incredible tuition break if their children went to any Hopkins college or grad school.

Thank you for your reply, Hopkins was actually one of the programs I was considering, would you mind if I pm you with a few questions. The reason I hadn't thought as much about ADN programs is because I attended undergrad out of my home state and I would like to do the same for nursing school.

FullGlass, BSN, MSN, NP · May 28, 2020

56 minutes ago, turtlesRcool said:
Just wanted to point out that some of those schools do not have BSN programs at all. Yale school of nursing, for example, is strictly a grad school. They do have an entry MSN track for those with a previous degree where the first year is basically an ABSN, but you can't exit the program after that first year with a Yale degree (those who are already RNs enter the program in the second year). Undergrads from other nursing schools regularly use Yale New Haven Hospital for clinical rotations.

Yes, many of the top schools have eliminated the BSN and gone to an MSN in place of the ABSN. I was in one of the last ABSN classes at Hopkins.

17 minutes ago, ad2020 said:
Thank you for your reply, Hopkins was actually one of the programs I was considering, would you mind if I pm you with a few questions. The reason I hadn't thought as much about ADN programs is because I attended undergrad out of my home state and I would like to do the same for nursing school.

Sure, feel free to message me

ad2020 · May 29, 2020

1 hour ago, FullGlass said:
Yes, many of the top schools have eliminated the BSN and gone to an MSN in place of the ABSN. I was in one of the last ABSN classes at Hopkins.
Sure, feel free to message me

Never mind it isn't letting me send one. Basically I was just wondering what your experience was like. I know it's a direct entry masters program but I am 100% certain that my career goal is to eventually work as an NP. I know there may be some benefit to attending a less expensive community college but was your experience there still overall positive?