Wherever I've worked, we always call doctors 'Dr So and So'. I've never been anywhere where they are called by their first name. They call nurses by first name.
I'm old-fashioned in this way. I feel that MDs deserve this respect. I'm in no way groveling and generally enjoy all the doctors I work with, especially the more seasoned, experienced ones. Some of the younger ones have yet to develop into interesting people, and tend to lack great social skills.
I also address my children's school teachers by Mrs or Mr and their surname, even if they try to get on first name basis. I come from a different generation where people were more formal. When I was a girl one did not address any adults but your parents' close friends by their first names.
Is this changing in some places and how do you feel about this subject?
I believe the etiquette is that you refer as the title until the person invites you or strongly prefers that you refer to them by their first names.
My point again is this. Why are nurses abdicating the same courtesy? Refer to me as Nurse So & So until I invite you to refer to be as otherwise. And if I have an earned academic title, such as doctorate in whatever, refer to me with the title until I invite you to do otherwise.
That's balanced and professional from both perspectives. IMHO nurses refuse to have the cajones to respectfully send that message. If we were in the military, it would be expected that we would use the title held first and foremost.
See why is that nurses negate respect of title but are so committed to giving it to others--not that that is wrong to give it to others. But it should go BOTH WAYS. Nurses are NOT good at this, and they wonder why they are most often--whether they admit it or not-- treated, at least to some degree--in the ONE DOWN position as clinicians and professionals. Expect respect and give it as well. Even Jesus accepted the role of Rabi, teacher. I dont' think he was stuck on it. But a message was sent and returned back. If you want respect, you must expect it--not in the sense of the idea that you have earned overall--you may or you may not have--I don't know you--so, I can't answer that. But in the sense that you see yourself as an educated and experienced professional that has, at least in that right, earned the respect of proper address.
As professionals, nurses, you can't have it both ways.
And the person that said it takes 18 mo.s to become a nurse--well, I don't know what professional program of collegiate study in nursing you are referring to, but that's just way off. The only acception to that would be someone that holds an academic four-year or graduate degree in something else, and then has hooked up into one of these Accelerated RN programs. I kind of have mixed feelings about such programs. But I think we have to wait and see the stats of progress on these programs are in the long run before we judge too harshly.
We all have the same opportunity in this country to go as far as you want with your education...folks may not like some of the choices that they may have to make to get there, but then again, it's a choice as well.
If you don't believe me...go to work tomorrow and start calling physician's by their first name...the next time you have to go to court for a traffic ticket, address the judge by their first name (after all, it's only a black robe...a mere piece of fabric)...start calling your college professors by their first name...and report back what happens.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I meant that respect is a two way street in that I respect those who have earned their education, but I would like respect in return.
Comments about how RN's are "not so smart" and it only takes 18 months to be an RN are not very respectful.
No matter what one's title or education, I try to treat everyone on the health care team with equal respect.
And as stated in my above post, I do address a person who has earned the title as "Dr." and this goes for any healthcare professional, not just MDs!
What I find irritating is the ocassional physician who expects to be called "Dr." who doesn't show me the same courtesy in return.
This is exactly what I mean! A nurse who has a PhD/DNP deserves the same respect by being called "Dr."
Sorry, I didn't mean to seem like I misunderstood you.
I hear what you are saying.
I just think nurses aren't as serious as they could be about mutual respect. And if I address someone as Dr. or whatever until they invite me to call them otherwise, well, I should then expect them to address me as Ns. So & So, until I direct them otherwise. I don't know. Just seems fair to me.
But sadly I fear nurses will remain in this one-down position, partly b/c we think it is due us. If we didn't, we think and act a bit differently. We wouldn't play along with many of the unfair and "off" games that occur in the field
Nurses have to look down the road a ways. Between 2012 and 2020 there just won't be nearly enough nurses. The role will be relegated to some very base occupation. Nursing must lose this whole "every man for himself" mentality. Everyone surely wants to keep their jobs and get ahead. But at what price. Every act a nurse makes in his or her own career or on some committee or with respect to administration and approaches toward individual nurses or nurses as whole should be considered with respect to how this mentality or action or whatever AFFECTS the whole of nursing--the profession, if you will. What keeps many nurses and perhaps the whole of nurses from being truly a profession is that so many just don't think this way. Again, it's the every man for himself mentality.
A profession cares about the whole--which means caring about fellow individual nurses, groups of nurses, and the whole of the profession. It is not just about going with the flow so that I as a nurse am safe or may advance. And in a nutshell, that is the sad thing I see in nursing.
And it is relevant here, b/c nurses aren't apt to generally stand together and respectfully demand respect for their roles and professions--even with something as basic as how they are addressed by others and each other in the workplace. What's horrific about referring to your colleague as Nurse Brown, until they extend the vist name basic? What's horrible about physicians referring to other nurses as Nurse Brown or Nurse Snyder, or Nurse Conner, etc, until they invite the physician to refer to them on a first name basis?
We get less respect b/c we don't assert ourselves to it. We have been so stuck in this whole "go with the flow" mentality that we have paralyzed the profession of nursing.
I know this seems like a strong position. But I've been a nurse for a long time. I wish I could see that this has all changed for the better. But it's only gotten worse.
I mean not too many years ago nurses were complaining about having to give up their long and/or fake nails--even know all the evidence shows that they are dangerous for a number of reasons. I honestly can't think of a lot of physicians taking this same position over "faux nails." It just boggles my mind.
I mean recently I've seen a nurse come into work and I swear you could see her thong and butt cleavage when she bent over.
And this is different from the nurse that is well endowed but the stupid scrub top only goes up so far, so from time to time a bit of cleavage is scene. Now the poor nurse, who is usually burning up at work, has to wear a tee shift underneath her scrub top, b/c she can't help she is well endowed and on occassion, a tiny bit of cleavage might be scene.
No, I am talking about a nurse that routinely wears her scrub pains low, thong is sceen and often enough, butt cleavage is scene. For the love of God. No one wants to see her butt cleavage--except some horny males--but changes are, deep inside they have some problems with respect for this person--regardless of her expertise.
How often do you see physicians exposing butt cleavage? How often do you see physicians getting into arguments in open spaces with other physicians? Sure sometimes, but it is rare.
And in general, physicians are not as apt to be cut throat with each other--for most of them understand the need to build coalitions rather than cliques and factions.
Nursing in general hasn't risen to this point. It is still terribly entreanched with cliques and factions, and sneaky, cut-throat games--rallying some nurses against one or others--rather than reaching their hands out for acceptance and support.
What's in a name? I don't know. Maybe the beginning of the acceptance of a professional, mutually respectful modal in nursing.
What's saddest of all is the fact that many nurses I know have given up on the idea that this will ever happen. They plot their time out until retirement. Sad. . .What will be the true legacy of nursing?
I know wanna. I am thinking of starting that trend. Wondering how it will go over with other nurses. Hello, I am Nurse Samatha Adams, RN. LOL
Or hello I am Professiona Nurse Adams--or Hi I am Clinical Nuse Adam. I'll have to give this some thought. See if we were in the military we'd get a rank and use it.
I am not disrespecting housekeeping at all. Good housekeepers are worth a lot to me. And so are great unit secretaries.
But how we have been educated, what we are expected to know and do, what our licenses and ANA codes of ethics, etc demand from us, and what experience has given us, we deserve to be referred to as something more than Mary, Bill, John, Lesley, etc. We've earned the right to a professional title. Why isn't it used??????
Actually, we don't "all" have the same opportunity to go as far as we want to go with our educations. We have the opportunity to go as far as we can pay for. Just sayin.
As for first names- I've had professors (have one currently actually) who has asked us to call them by their first names. I think it all depends on *their* preference. If their preference is to be called by their first name and someone insists on using their title or something else- IMO that is a sign of *disrespect* because their wishes are being refused. MHO.
There is ALWAYS money available for college.
There are loans and pell grants to pay for an undergrad. There are campuses to live on and meal plans...ALL of which can be paid for by financial aid...if you can't afford the tuition at your local school...the answer is simple..MOVE to where you CAN afford to pay the loans after graduation, where a college is cheaper and has available housing.
They even have married student housing.
You can work part-time to pay for the incidentals. Tons of students in school do not have cars. They are not necessary. You can take a taxi once a week to go to the grocery store cheaper than you can pay a monthly payment for a car and insurance and maintenance.
If you join the military, they will pay for school when you get out. If you get a job, most major companies will pay for school part time through tuition reimbursement.
If you work hard, you can get scholarships to offset loans.
For nursing, most hospitals offer FULL scholarships to students, plus stipends, if you sign a contract.
So, do not say that people are limited by what they can pay for. If you can't afford $30K a year in tuition, there are tons of colleges that are cheaper.
I don't drive a BMW because I can't afford one....students shouldn't pick a college they can't afford either.
There is more money available for college today than at any time before in history.
As I said, they MAY NOT LIKE the choices that they have to make, but it all boils down to CHOICES.
I absolutely, don't have any sympathy for people that sit and boo hoo about not having a college degree. The SAME opportunity is there for everyone.
All you have to do, is take it.
I grew up next to a family next door, who had parents that didn't have any money whatsoever. They had 5 children. All 5 paid THEIR OWN way through college.
Of the 5, 1 has a BS, 3 have their Masters degrees, and 1 is an OB-GYN.
While I agree in theory, much like the difference between classroom and reality- the reality of different people's financial situations isn't the same between the theory of "everyone can" to the reality. The answer isn't that simple- when people have a house they can't sell in a crappy housing market, it's not nearly as simple as "just move to where it's affordable"- especially if ones spouse doesn't want to move, and ones children would be affected by the move. When one is older, has children, in a dual income situation with little to no room to cut back- it's just sometimes not possible just then to follow the flippant advice given that I was responding to. Not everyone starts out with years beforehand knowing they want to go to nursing school and in a financial and practical position to make that happen- some people come into it married, with kids, having to work two jobs to get by in a housing market where you can't sell a house if you wanted to to take advantage of married student housing and couldn't fit the kids into it even if you could, let alone the idea of moving. One cannot work part time to pay for incidentals when one has small children at home and is going to school full time and studying. One would never see them. Loans are great- if you can get them. Pell grants are great- if you qualify (but many who are otherwise strapped for cash can't qualify because they make too much.). Many are too old or physically unsuited to joining the military. In this economy, you'll find fewer and fewer hospitals willing to pay for *anything* let alone full tuition, even with a contract.
I'm just saying- it's great to be idealistic- but it's rather insensitive to be so flippant about finances, in this market especially. For some people, it really isn't as easy as some make it out to be. It's not a matter of "just do this" or "just do that"- for some it's an issue of "bust your rear for a few years, hope the kid that has certain developmental concerns is able to go to public school, get the CNA cert, work in the field to get some cash on the front end, wait till the car is paid off, and then hope the rest fits into place to make it feasible.
Now- if you told me that the person in your example was the one who had 5 kids and they paid their own way through nursing school while raising those 5 kids- I'd be interested in how they did it. Otherwise- most of that advice is suited to young people who don't have children, mortgages, bills, etc.
Am I saying it's NOT possible? Hardly. What I'm saying is that it's not as simple as you are making it out to be for some people- particularly those of us who are older with other obligations to work around.
There is ALWAYS money available for college.
There are loans and pell grants to pay for an undergrad. There are campuses to live on and meal plans...ALL of which can be paid for by financial aid...if you can't afford the tuition at your local school...the answer is simple..MOVE to where you CAN afford to pay the loans after graduation, where a college is cheaper and has available housing.
They even have married student housing.
You can work part-time to pay for the incidentals. Tons of students in school do not have cars. They are not necessary. You can take a taxi once a week to go to the grocery store cheaper than you can pay a monthly payment for a car and insurance and maintenance.
If you join the military, they will pay for school when you get out. If you get a job, most major companies will pay for school part time through tuition reimbursement.
If you work hard, you can get scholarships to offset loans.
For nursing, most hospitals offer FULL scholarships to students, plus stipends, if you sign a contract.
So, do not say that people are limited by what they can pay for. If you can't afford $30K a year in tuition, there are tons of colleges that are cheaper.
I don't drive a BMW because I can't afford one....students shouldn't pick a college they can't afford either.
There is more money available for college today than at any time before in history.
As I said, they MAY NOT LIKE the choices that they have to make, but it all boils down to CHOICES.
I absolutely, don't have any sympathy for people that sit and boo hoo about not having a college degree. The SAME opportunity is there for everyone.
All you have to do, is take it.
I grew up next to a family next door, who had parents that didn't have any money whatsoever. They had 5 children. All 5 paid THEIR OWN way through college.
Of the 5, 1 has a BS, 3 have their Masters degrees, and 1 is an OB-GYN.
Specializes in CCU, SICU, CVSICU, Precepting & Teaching.
at my hospital it's common practice to call the doctor's by their first names. i don't know if this is something our doctors are taught to encourage when they are hired on, because even when they answer their phones they'll be like "this is joe," as opposed to "this is dr. smith." i like the first name calling, and i do feel it helps doctors and nurses be on more of a level.
i recentally spent a day in a cystic fibrosis clinic and was surprised when one of their nurses told me that it is recommended by the national cf foundation that healthcare workers respond to each others by first names. the nurse said the reason for this reasoning was to encourage md/rn to be teamplayers, plus they felt it encouraged the patients to see both roles as relevant in the team.
i know i can be pretty old fashioned about some things (getting married before you start the family for example) but i've been calling physicians by their first names for a quarter of a century now. i've worked in teaching hospitals, mostly, so perhaps that's some of it, and 20 of those years were spent on the west coast. i agree with the cf foundation that it encourages team building and team work. where i worked most recently on the west coast, you only call a physician "dr." if either he's really ticked you off, or he's screwing something up. they get real nervous when you call them "dr."
recently, i had an intensivist go off on me. we always call the intensivists by their first names, and when we introduce them to patients it's "horatio hamish, the doctor in charge" rather than "dr. hamish." this particular intensivist likes to be called "dr." and if he weren't such an arrogant, rude, condescending a$$, i would probably comply. as it is, i prefer not to call him anything. as it happened, this particular day, i was telling an orientee that "most of the intensivists have their own preferences about this -- mike's preference is this and horatio prefers that. goodsett (last name of the arrogant jerk) prefers . . ." it just so happened that goodsett (not, of course, his real name) was standing right there and said "it's dr. goodsett to you, ruby."
and i shot back "then it's "mrs. vee" to you, frank."
both the orientee and my manager were standing there trying not to laugh.
While I agree in theory, much like the difference between classroom and reality- the reality of different people's financial situations isn't the same between the theory of "everyone can" to the reality. The answer isn't that simple- when people have a house they can't sell in a crappy housing market, it's not nearly as simple as "just move to where it's affordable"- especially if ones spouse doesn't want to move, and ones children would be affected by the move. When one is older, has children, in a dual income situation with little to no room to cut back- it's just sometimes not possible just then to follow the flippant advice given that I was responding to. Not everyone starts out with years beforehand knowing they want to go to nursing school and in a financial and practical position to make that happen- some people come into it married, with kids, having to work two jobs to get by in a housing market where you can't sell a house if you wanted to to take advantage of married student housing and couldn't fit the kids into it even if you could, let alone the idea of moving. One cannot work part time to pay for incidentals when one has small children at home and is going to school full time and studying. One would never see them. Loans are great- if you can get them. Pell grants are great- if you qualify (but many who are otherwise strapped for cash can't qualify because they make too much.). Many are too old or physically unsuited to joining the military. In this economy, you'll find fewer and fewer hospitals willing to pay for *anything* let alone full tuition, even with a contract.
I'm just saying- it's great to be idealistic- but it's rather insensitive to be so flippant about finances, in this market especially. For some people, it really isn't as easy as some make it out to be. It's not a matter of "just do this" or "just do that"- for some it's an issue of "bust your rear for a few years, hope the kid that has certain developmental concerns is able to go to public school, get the CNA cert, work in the field to get some cash on the front end, wait till the car is paid off, and then hope the rest fits into place to make it feasible.
Now- if you told me that the person in your example was the one who had 5 kids and they paid their own way through nursing school while raising those 5 kids- I'd be interested in how they did it. Otherwise- most of that advice is suited to young people who don't have children, mortgages, bills, etc.
Am I saying it's NOT possible? Hardly. What I'm saying is that it's not as simple as you are making it out to be for some people- particularly those of us who are older with other obligations to work around.
Pleaase don't take offense BabyLady; but I just have to aggree w/ Equinox's POV. And currently w/ the banking situation as it, well, it get's even scarier. Plus, even you have kids in college too, various bills, mortgage, but make a certain amount of money, and a lot of that money is allocated for bills and such, even the goov't loans say "Your contribution should be $30,000" or whatever. So then you have to take out another loan for the $30,000 at a higher interest rate. It's totally not as simple as what you are saying depending on the specifics of your own situation. Wish it were. Just aint so.
Here's a twist: although I have a PhD in nursing, the physicians with whom I work still call me Teresa, and they still expect me to call them "Dr." - I comply to avoid stirring the pot over a small issue, but it irks me nonetheless.
Guest343211
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I agress llg. Respectfulness is a two way street.
I believe the etiquette is that you refer as the title until the person invites you or strongly prefers that you refer to them by their first names.
My point again is this. Why are nurses abdicating the same courtesy? Refer to me as Nurse So & So until I invite you to refer to be as otherwise. And if I have an earned academic title, such as doctorate in whatever, refer to me with the title until I invite you to do otherwise.
That's balanced and professional from both perspectives. IMHO nurses refuse to have the cajones to respectfully send that message. If we were in the military, it would be expected that we would use the title held first and foremost.
See why is that nurses negate respect of title but are so committed to giving it to others--not that that is wrong to give it to others. But it should go BOTH WAYS. Nurses are NOT good at this, and they wonder why they are most often--whether they admit it or not-- treated, at least to some degree--in the ONE DOWN position as clinicians and professionals. Expect respect and give it as well. Even Jesus accepted the role of Rabi, teacher. I dont' think he was stuck on it. But a message was sent and returned back. If you want respect, you must expect it--not in the sense of the idea that you have earned overall--you may or you may not have--I don't know you--so, I can't answer that. But in the sense that you see yourself as an educated and experienced professional that has, at least in that right, earned the respect of proper address.
As professionals, nurses, you can't have it both ways.
And the person that said it takes 18 mo.s to become a nurse--well, I don't know what professional program of collegiate study in nursing you are referring to, but that's just way off. The only acception to that would be someone that holds an academic four-year or graduate degree in something else, and then has hooked up into one of these Accelerated RN programs. I kind of have mixed feelings about such programs. But I think we have to wait and see the stats of progress on these programs are in the long run before we judge too harshly.