Doctoral degree to become an NP???

Published

The American Association of Colleges of Nursing (AACN) is calling for the requirement of doctorate in nursing for advanced practice nurses, such as nurse practitioners, nurse midwives, clinical nurse specialists, and nurse anesthetists. This new degree will be called a Doctor of Nursing Practice and, if the AACN has its way, will become the entry level for advanced nursing practice.

AACN Position Statement on the Practice Doctorate in Nursing

wowza , i personally wouldn't waste anymore time on someone who has no idea about medicine in general. he's just trolling for arguments!

if i am just trolling for arguments, why do so many people in medicine make the same arguments that i do? you seem to think that because you work in medicine you know everything about healthcare economics. the truth is that we are not discussing medicine in general, we are discussing healthcare economics. you obviously have no clue about healthcare economics and that is probably because you work in medicine.

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If I am just trolling for arguments, why do so many people in medicine make the same arguments that I do? You seem to think that because you work in medicine you know everything about healthcare economics. The truth is that we are not discussing medicine in general, we are discussing healthcare economics. You obviously have no clue about healthcare economics and that is probably because you work in medicine.

Can't beat an argument? Just move on to a new argument. I have posted arguments from an NP who then went to medical school who knows from experience that it is dangerous for NPs to deliver independent care. It is not right to sacrifice the quality of patients for people who don't have the training to be completely independent.

I don't claim to know everything about health care economics but I can realize that it is much more complicated than just how much you pay the provider.

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Can't beat an argument? Just move on to a new argument. I have posted arguments from an NP who then went to medical school who knows from experience that it is dangerous for NPs to deliver independent care. It is not right to sacrifice the quality of patients for people who don't have the training to be completely independent.

I don't claim to know everything about health care economics but I can realize that it is much more complicated than just how much you pay the provider.

It is really very simple, you have a very high opinion of physician education and some other people don't. You can't even prove that it is what is best for a patient. What I can prove is that there are no dangers being uncovered out there in states where NPs practice independently. You would be showing it to me if there were. That is enough to prove it to me, so I won that argument already. No need to continue it, thank you very much. The argument is really very simple. I'm not talking about just what you pay the provider. I am talking about value for the customer. You always fail to see that argument because you are blinded by your love for physician education.

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It is really very simple, you have a very high opinion of physician education and some other people don't. You can't even prove that it is what is best for a patient. What I can prove is that there are no dangers being uncovered out there in states where NPs practice independently. You would be showing it to me if there were. That is enough to prove it to me, so I won that argument already. No need to continue it, thank you very much. The argument is really very simple. I'm not talking about just what you pay the provider. I am talking about value for the customer. You always fail to see that argument because you are blinded by your love for physician education.

Why don't you post that data then.

Value to the customer? They pay their insurance premiums and their co-pay... both of which don't change whether they see the MD or the NP. So given the extra education, it looks like the physician is actually the best value to the customer.

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Regardless, the economic argument is a terribly weak argument.

Let me give you an example of why this argument is weak: Instead of having physicians who train for 5-10 years after medical school doing surgeries, why don't we just let someone who doesn't have the training but will cost less do all the surgeries. I mean it will cost less. That's the most important thing, right?

When you need a surgery done, who will you choose?

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Regardless, the economic argument is a terribly weak argument.

Let me give you an example of why this argument is weak: Instead of having physicians who train for 5-10 years after medical school doing surgeries, why don't we just let someone who doesn't have the training but will cost less do all the surgeries. I mean it will cost less. That's the most important thing, right?

When you need a surgery done, who will you choose?

(Be careful what farce and hyperbole you choose to try to make a point -- there have been people on this site who have proposed just that (and I'd hate to see them get stirred up again :rolleyes:). There was a very lengthy thread a few years ago about whether or not NPs should be allowed to do surgery -- you know, after maybe taking a few extra classes ... Most of the people in favor of this idea, of course, were people who weren't even nurses yet, but planned to become NPs and had v. grandiose ideas about NP scope of practice. Oy veh!!)

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Why don't you post that data then.

Value to the customer? They pay their insurance premiums and their co-pay... both of which don't change whether they see the MD or the NP. So given the extra education, it looks like the physician is actually the best value to the customer.

This post just proves that you have absolutely no idea how healthcare economics works. You are looking at this purely from the customer's perspective, the trees, not the forest. What you are failing to acknowledge is that the premium could go down without the physician in the primary care arena. What data are you referring to? Why don't I post what?

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Regardless, the economic argument is a terribly weak argument.

Let me give you an example of why this argument is weak: Instead of having physicians who train for 5-10 years after medical school doing surgeries, why don't we just let someone who doesn't have the training but will cost less do all the surgeries. I mean it will cost less. That's the most important thing, right?

When you need a surgery done, who will you choose?

Why would you even post such drivel? NPs are trained to provide primary care! The most important thing is that when people are qualified, you don't artificially restrict them from competing. Would you pay the price for a jackhammer to do the job that a sledgehammer could do perfectly fine? I don't think so. It is the same reasoning that gets applied to any number of situations. Cheaper solutions make sense in a lot of them. This is an example of why your argument is so weak. Cost is VERY important. It makes a HUGE difference to our economy.

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Would you pay the price for a jackhammer to do the job that a sledgehammer could do perfectly fine? I don't think so. It is the same reasoning that gets applied to any number of situations. Cheaper solutions make sense in a lot of them. This is an example of why your argument is so weak. Cost is VERY important. It makes a HUGE difference to our economy.

This is an excellent metaphor. I'm assuming the jackhammer is the expensive MD and a sledge hammer is the NP.

Your metaphor is exactly what I have been saying. The jackhammer does more work in less time- it is much more efficient. Also, the jackhammer has more capability and more versatility. It has the ability to break through any concrete. Finally, with a jackhammer, you know that you will always be able to get through that concrete while the same definitely cannot be said about the sledgehammer. So when the sledge just can't do the job, you have to get the jackhammer anyway. It is just more efficient to get the jackhammer first- which is why every construction crew that works with concrete uses a jackhammer and not a sledge.

See, the only difference is, that in this metaphor people don't die if the sledge hammer doesn't do the right job right away.

I'm gonna assume you haven't ever used either of these so perhaps you wouldn't have realized how appropriate that metaphor was, but thanks for playing.

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This is an excellent metaphor. I'm assuming the jackhammer is the expensive MD and a sledge hammer is the NP.

Your metaphor is exactly what I have been saying. The jackhammer does more work in less time- it is much more efficient. Also, the jackhammer has more capability and more versatility. It has the ability to break through any concrete. Finally, with a jackhammer, you know that you will always be able to get through that concrete while the same definitely cannot be said about the sledgehammer. So when the sledge just can't do the job, you have to get the jackhammer anyway. It is just more efficient to get the jackhammer first- which is why every construction crew that works with concrete uses a jackhammer and not a sledge.

See, the only difference is, that in this metaphor people don't die if the sledge hammer doesn't do the right job right away.

I'm gonna assume you haven't ever used either of these so perhaps you wouldn't have realized how appropriate that metaphor was, but thanks for playing.

Wow, now you are really showing your ignorance about business in general. EVERY construction crew has a jack hammer? I don't think so. It depends on the job they are doing my friend. If they can support the overhead of a jack hammer, then they are doing a heavy duty job, but for the light jobs, they would exclusively use the sledge hammer because their revenues wouldn't support the heavy overhead of the jack hammer. You have absolutely no concept of how any economy or business works. And you proved it with this post. Sorry, no consolation prize for you today. Don't cry too much on your way home.

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When you need a surgery done, who will you choose?

A doctor in Bangkok.

I'm a psych NP student and just started my 3rd week with a psychiatrist. He informed me today that Friday he is cutting me loose to practice on my own. Ask me about my anxiety...:redbeathe

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Wow, now you are really showing your ignorance about business in general. EVERY construction crew has a jack hammer? I don't think so. It depends on the job they are doing my friend. If they can support the overhead of a jack hammer, then they are doing a heavy duty job, but for the light jobs, they would exclusively use the sledge hammer because their revenues wouldn't support the heavy overhead of the jack hammer. You have absolutely no concept of how any economy or business works. And you proved it with this post. Sorry, no consolation prize for you today. Don't cry too much on your way home.

Now ^THIS^ is a strawman. You misrepresent my point and then attack the misrepresented point.

On a different note, if you'd ever used a sledge to break up concrete (which I'm betting you haven't which is why you belabored the point) you'd know just how poor of an instrument it is for breaking concrete and how it takes 10x the effort to do a fraction of the job while at the same time being messier. Next time you see a construction crew doing road work look to see if they are using a sledgehammer or a jackhammer and snap a picture for us. I'll give you a hint, they're gonna be using a jackhammer.

Zenman, I've very recently been to Thailand and while I know their health care is supposed to be very good and their physicians are also supposed to be very good, I am not sure I would risk it at this point. I know many do, and their medical tourism is starting to pick up but I'm not sure I would. Good luck on Friday.

I don't think we're gonna get anywhere just bickering and arguing. Jstand, you can act all you want like your education is the same as a doctor's but quite frankly it is not. You can be jealous all you want but your arguing and mine are not going to change that fact. One day your hubris is going to get the best of you. I hope it doesn't but I'm gonna bet it does. If you even realize that you've made a mistake, please think of me.

That's it for me. I'm gonna take a break from this thread for a while.

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