Do You Want Universal Healthcare?

Atheos · Aug 8, 2008

Oh, I definitely want other fat trimmed. I am just pointing out the fact that the same people that don't want universal health care are pretty much ok with the nonsense they pay for.

That is pretty much undeniable based on posts from other threads and earlier posts on this one.

It's hypocritical. I just like pointing it out...

tntrn, ASN, RN · Aug 8, 2008

That doesn't happen though. It's rare that people vote on what a politician says. Almost always a vote is based on his 'values.' They vote on his personality.
...

And after listening carefully to what Mr. Obama says, coupled with his lack of experience, having nothing concrete to show as far as accomplishments as a Senator, will not vote for him. HIs ideas to give $1000 to everybody for this; and $2500 to everybody for that; and $4000 to all the people for something else! Sheesh! Where's that coming from?

Next I hear that "working families" (those who make under $150k) may get another kind of give away (gas cards). Does that mean that people who make over $150 K don't work. What an insult.

And while the oil companies do have record profits, they also pay (tax bennies or not) millions and billions in taxes themselves. They get very little of what we pay at the pump in their own pockets, as most of that goes to taxes.

I would rather have more a say in where my tax dollars go. And with health care, I believe there is more of a say in the way it's done now. With universal care, no say whatsoever. And I might have less control over my own needs too.

We do tend to vote bozos into office. Here in Washington state, where most leaders have never met a tax they don't love, I'm sick of it; yet the tax lovers keep getting elected. Have to wonder if people really understand that government shouldn't

control your income: you need to control it.

I believe that most wealthy people are also very compassionate and in general are good givers. But to expect them and require them to give and give and give (actually it's taken and taken and taken from them) just because they have more is wrong. I'm not in that category, but I am in a category where I didn't get the "economic stimulus." We're on a fixed income now. We give through our church whenever possible and always when there is some kind of natural disaster. Every penny of this goes to the cause. I don't have that assurance anywhere else.

Marie.C · Aug 8, 2008

that's a good point Pelsmith!

Jolie, BSN · Aug 8, 2008

I am just pointing out the fact that the same people that don't want universal health care are pretty much ok with the nonsense they pay for.
That is pretty much undeniable based on posts from other threads and earlier posts on this one.
It's hypocritical. I just like pointing it out...

So please enlighten me. What "nonsense" am I OK paying for?

Patti SW · Aug 8, 2008

Well CRNA, what I was saying was we need to stop saying he said, she said. Step up to the plate if you have the answers. I think everyone should stop being so negative and give solutions. It is easy to give your opinion about what is wrong but, not so easy to give the solutions. What is your solution to the current problem? I welcome your thoughts. I really don't care to hear about what everyone thinks about government, I would love to hear what you think would work. So we could all work together to achieve those goals. I would love to hear anyone's and everyone's ideas about what could possibly work vs. what doesn't. We already know what doesn't work.

Jolie, BSN · Aug 8, 2008

Patty,

Many of us have made suggestions for ways to provide access to healthcare for those in need. See posts # 411, 576 & 636 for some examples.

There are also numerous threads discussing other proposals, including coupling high-deductible health plans with government subsidies to fund the deductibles, requiring accountability on the part of the recipient, something that is sadly lacking from most government programs.

tntrn, ASN, RN · Aug 8, 2008

and please don't post any graphics about how "efficient" medicare is. i'd be laughing too hard to read them.
quote]
thank you! i just can't do graphs. i skip right over them because they just don't mean anything to me.

CRNA2007 · Aug 8, 2008

Stanley, you have no clue what you are talking about. Show me where I approve of corporate welfare? You know why Wal-Mart gets away with not providing healthcare in places like Minnesota because the state (controlled by liveral Dems) have passed laws allowing them to do so. People in Minnesota like HM2 Viking demand these health care programs so when a company directs their employees there and cancels their own insurance policies they cry foul. Sorry, but this is exactly what will happen with universal health care. The abuse and fraud will be enormous and the liberals as usual will stand up and cry foul. Liberals never look at results of their actions only their intentions. What you want are all the freebies without having to put in the work to obtain it. If you would like I can mail you a couple of economic 101 text books so you can better understand how an economy actually works.

As to the oil companies getting tax credits again who is in charge of congress giving them the tax breaks? Democrats?

All these poeple, especially the republicans keep saying they don't want to pay more taxes..
Taxpayers Pay for Wal-Mart's "Low Road"
That is just an example of how, repople like CRNA, don't want to pay taxes to fund someone's health care bhut have absolutely no problem in using taxes to give subsidies to corporations that need absolutely no money or help whatsoever.
I won't even get into the 100s of millions of dollars in subsidies and tax credits that go to oil companies that continue to post record high profits even with the cost of oil rising.
CRNA thinks it's ok to withhold funding for healthcare but ok to fund multinational companies that don't need the money...
This republican hypocrisy is what put us in our bad position in the first place. When are they going to learn...

Atheos · Aug 8, 2008

So please enlighten me. What "nonsense" am I OK paying for?

Actually I was speaking about CRNA as it was him I was commenting on the entire time.

Atheos · Aug 8, 2008

If you would like I can mail you a couple of economic 101 text books so you can better understand how an economy actually works.

Well then make sure they were a) either written in a time where Dems controlled the gov't and actually had a good economy or b) from one of those socialized countries you don't like whose economies are better than ours.

In fact send one to the Pres. you voted in. He needs some help I do believe...

Chico David, BSN, RN · Aug 8, 2008

Anyone who is honest in discussing this issue has to deal with certain very clear facts:

1. Spending on healthcare is spending on healthcare - whether you spend it via taxes or via premiums and co-pays or via lower wages to make up for what your employer spends on your premiums, it ultimately all comes from the same place - middle class taxpayers, by and large.

2. Of the wealthy industrialized countries in the world, the US spends far more on healthcare than any of the others - the range is about 80% more to about 120% more.

3. Our results whether measured in population stats like life expectancy or infant mortality, or more healthcare specific stats like heart attack survival or life expectancy after diagnosis with a particular disease are no better than those other countries and often a good deal worse.

so... We are the only one without a universal system.... we spend more than all the others .... and get less. Seems like we might have something to learn from those who are demonstrably doing it better?

We could go on at great length, but I'd really love to see one of the free market advocates advance an argument that actually deals with those facts - and they are facts, wishing won't make them go away - rather than just ignoring them and arguing from slogans about big government.

HM2VikingRN, RN · Aug 8, 2008

stanley, you have no clue what you are talking about. show me where i approve of corporate welfare? you know why wal-mart gets away with not providing healthcare in places like minnesota because the state (controlled by liveral dems) have passed laws allowing them to do so. people in minnesota like hm2 viking demand these health care programs so when a company directs their employees there and cancels their own insurance policies they cry foul. sorry, but this is exactly what will happen with universal health care. the abuse and fraud will be enormous and the liberals as usual will stand up and cry foul. liberals never look at results of their actions only their intentions. what you want are all the freebies without having to put in the work to obtain it. if you would like i can mail you a couple of economic 101 text books so you can better understand how an economy actually works.
as to the oil companies getting tax credits again who is in charge of congress giving them the tax breaks? democrats?

walmart has an employee in each store whose job it is to effectively steer their employees to using the equivalent of medicaid etc. walmart's business model is built top to bottom on not paying a living wage.

the simple reality is:

wal-mart and health care
download the wal-mart and health care flyer - pdf
wal-mart's health care plan fails to cover over 775,000 employees
wal-mart reported in january 2006 that its health insurance only covers 43% of their employees. wal-mart has approximately 1.39 million us employees. [http://www.walmartfacts.com/docs/1625_jan2006healthcarebackgrounders_576890240.pdf]
wal-mart's health insurance falls far short of other large companies
on average for 2005, large companies (200 or more workers) cover approximately 66% of their employees. if wal-mart was to reach the average coverage rate, wal-mart should be covering an additional 318,000 employees [kaiser family foundation, 2005 and http://www.walmartfacts.com/docs/1625_jan2006healthcarebackgrounders_576890240.pdf].
wal-mart's health care eligibility is restrictive
part-timers—anybody below 34 hours a week — must wait 1 year before they can enroll. moreover, spouses of part-time employees are ineligible for family health care coverage for 2006. [wal-mart stores, "my benefits, new peak time benefits making a difference for you," 2006]
full-time hourly employees must wait 180 days (approximately 6 months) before being able to enroll in wal-mart's health insurance plan. managers have no waiting period. [wal-mart 2006 associate guide]
nationally, the average wait time for new employees to become eligible is 1.7 months. for the retail industry it is 3.0 months. [kaiser family foundation & health research and educational trust, 2005]
all of wal-mart's health plans are too costly for its workers to use
since the average full-time wal-mart employee earned $17,114 in 2005, he or she would have to spend between 7 and 25 percent of his or her income just to cover the premiums and medical deductibles, if electing for single coverage. [wal-mart 2006 associate guide and ufcw analysis]
the average full-time employee electing for family coverage would have to spend between 22 and 40 percent of his or her income just to cover the premiums and medical deductibles. these costs do not include other health-related expenses such as medical co-pays, prescription coverage, emergency room deductibles, and ambulance deductibles. [wal-mart 2006 associate guide and ufcw analysis].
wal-mart trumps the affordability of its new health care plan. according to wal-mart, "in january [2006], ...coverage will be available for as little as $22 per month for individuals" [http://www.walmartfacts.com]
what wal-mart's website leaves out: coverage is affordable, but using it will bankrupt many employees. wal-mart's most affordable plan for 2006 includes a $1,000 deductible for single coverage and a $3,000 deductible for family coverage ($1,000 deductible per person covered up to $3,000). [wal-mart 2006 associate guide]
wal-mart admits public health care is a "better value"
president and ceo lee scott said in 2005, "in some of our states, the public program may actually be a better value - with relatively high income limits to qualify, and low premiums." [transcript lee scott speech 4/5/05]
wal-mart's health care is getting costlier
between 2000-2005, the cost of premiums rose 169 percent for single coverage and 117 percent for family coverage. [ufcw analysis of annual wal-mart associate guides].
in comparison, premiums for family coverage in the u.s. have increased only by 59%, from 2000-2005. [employer health benefits: 2004 annual survey, kaiser family foundation & health research and educational trust, 2004] wal-mart employees pay more for health care costs
in 2004, wal-mart employees, in total, paid approximately 41% of the plan costs [wal-mart irs 5500 filings, 2005].
nationally for 2004 on average employees paid for only 16% of single coverage costs and 28% of family coverage costs [kaiser family foundation, 2005].
wal-mart covers less of the health care costs compared to its competitors
in a state analysis, the massachusetts department of health and human services found that in 2003, wal-mart covered only 52% of total health care premium costs compared to k-mart which covered 66%, target which covered 68%, and sears which covered 80% ["employers who have 50 or more employees using public health assistance," division of health care finance and policy, 2/2005]
wal-mart's spending falls below industry standards
wal-mart's spending on health care for its employees falls well below industry and national employer averages. in 2002, as reported in the wall street journal, wal-mart spent an average of $3,500 per employee. by comparison, the average spending per employee in the wholesale/retailing sector was $4,800. for u.s. employers in general, the average was $5,600 per employee, therefore, wal-mart's average spending on health benefits for each covered employee was 27% less than the industry average and 37% less than the national average. [bernard wysocki, jr. and ann zimmerman, "wal-mart cost-cutting finds a big target in health benefits," wall street journal september 30, 2003 p1]
wal-mart only spends 77 cents an hour per employee for health benefits
in 2004, wal-mart spent $1.5 billion on its health insurance. this amounts to an employer contribution of around only $0.77 an hour per employee. this accounts for approximately a half-percent of wal-mart's $285 billion in sales in 2004. [susan chambers, wal-mart internal memo, 2005, wal-mart annual report, 2005].
wal-mart increased advertising more than health care
in 2004, wal-mart spent nearly the same amount on advertising as it did on health insurance. in 2004, wal-mart reports that it spent $1.5 billion on health care benefits and $1.4 billion in advertising. [wal-mart annual report 2005, susan chambers, wal-mart internal memo, 2005]
between 2003 and 2004, wal-mart increased its advertising budget by $434 million, only increasing its spending on employee health care by $100 million. that means wal-mart increased its spending on advertising by 45 percent while only increasing its spending on employee health care by 7 percent. [wal-mart annual report 2005, susan chambers, wal-mart internal memo, 2005]
in fact, wal-mart has consistently increased spending on advertising more than its spending on employee health care. between 2002 and 2003, wal-mart put more new funds into advertising than into health care. wal-mart increased spending on advertising by $290 million, while only increasing health care spending by $215 million for the same period. (note: this also occurred in 1995-96, 1997-98,1998-1999). [wal-mart annual reports and 5500 filings]
one out of six wal-mart employees has no health care coverage at all
this is more than double the national percentage for large firms (firms with over 100 employees). in fact, we estimate that wal-mart accounted in 2005 for more than 1 out of every 40 uninsured workers who are employed at a large firm. [susan chambers, wal-mart internal memo, 2005; wal-mart annual report; "employer-sponsored health insurance coverage: sponsorship, eligibility, and participation patterns in 2001," bowen garrett, ph.d., released by the kaiser family foundation september 2004].

at http://www.wakeupwalmart.com/facts/#healthcare