Do nursing schools actually conciously REALIZE they are being ridiculous or is it a..

Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN · Feb 6, 2004

Originally posted by Speculating
I thought for sure a couple of times the only way I was going to pass was to sleep with a couple of those instructors. THANK GOD I made it through without having to drop my draws.

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Altra, BSN, RN · Feb 7, 2004

Originally posted by Roland
The bottom line is that I don't feel many nursing schools are being completely upfront with students. Indeed, I think it probable that so long as their NCLEX pass rates are high, and a fair number of their students GRADUATE they don't care if they do so with C's or A's. Indeed, I wouldn't put it past them to deliberately depress student grades so that they have few options, BUT to stay in bedside nursing. To the extent that this occurs it is ethically bankrupt, and in my opinion amounts to a civil rights violation for the students so affected IF it is predicated upon intrinsically unfair testing protocols.

My God, I'm going about this nursing school thing all wrong. I see now, it's a violation of my civil rights if I don't get good grades or if anything else happens that may interfere with my long term goals. Who knew??!!

nrsstephanie · Feb 7, 2004

Ok, I am a nursing instructor and no, we do not try to fail a certain percentage of students. And actually each state board of nursing closely monitors each school's attrition rate. If the number of students who graduate is too small in comparison to the number of students who began in the class, then the school can be placed on probation.

RNPATL, DNP, RN · Feb 7, 2004

Originally posted by nrsstephanie
Ok, I am a nursing instructor and no, we do not try to fail a certain percentage of students. And actually each state board of nursing closely monitors each school's attrition rate. If the number of students who graduate is too small in comparison to the number of students who began in the class, then the school can be placed on probation.

I am glad that you cleared up that debate. I am sure there are other nursing instructors that might be lurking on this thread .... please take a moment to give your input .... it would be helpful as far as I am concerned. :rolleyes:

Roland · Feb 7, 2004

do you actually mean that you believe that it IS fair to test over material that has not been ASSIGNED or PRESENTED? I agree, they can be ridiculous with the over 2,000 pages of material that they DID assign. THAT would be fair game. However, to ask questions about material that won't be covered for another TWO months in the class (again either in the readings, or the lectures), is not fair by any reasonable standard. At the very least the students should have the opportunity to present their case in some sort of rational, intellectual, discussion with the teacher. Would you have considered it fair if they had asked questions about differential calculus or ancient greek history on the test as well? What tresspass of equitable testing practice would meet YOUR threshold for protest without being classified as acting as a cry baby? Perhaps, you would suffer any inequity without protest, and that is your right.

However, part of training GREAT nurses is reinforcing people who QUESTION the status quo when they perceive wrongs being committed! Consider that poor girl at DUKE who was given organs, that didn't even match her blood type. Maybe if nurses were not beaten into an attitude of submission even while they were students they would be more inclined to speak up on the job preventing more of these types of "mistakes". I remember over a year ago reading about a nursing student in New Mexico or Arizona, who shot his instructors for what he considered to be unfair treatment (perhaps his name was Robert Alvarez?). At the time I felt he was "just" another loon who killed because he didn't get his way. Now after witnessing the fundamental unfairness that I've seen time and again his motive seems less preposterous. Nothing justifies violence in a civilized society, but acting in fundamentally unfair ways in matters that intimately affect peoples lives and futures promotes that very sort of responce. Especially, when it is done in a situation and context where those who perceive themselves adversely affected have no reasonable recourse in which to present their case or grievance without fear of likely backlash.

TweetiePieRN · Feb 7, 2004

Originally posted by Roland
do you actually mean that you believe that it IS fair to test over material that has not been ASSIGNED or PRESENTED? I agree, they can be ridiculous with the over 2,000 pages of material that they DID assign. THAT would be fair game. However, to ask questions about material that won't be covered for another TWO months in the class (again either in the readings, or the lectures), is not fair by any reasonable standard.

Roland...Nursing school is like bootcamp! They are weeding out the weak to make room for the strong. Survival of the fittest!!

If your wife was assigned 2,000 pages...did she actually read all of them and retain every ounce of information contained within? Or was she just "skim reading"? Because if she didn't sit and digest ALL the info...how can you be sure that the info from the test was NOT presented in the reading? My class has been told from day one that any piece of info we are given, be it notes, reading assignments, videos, case studies, etc. is fair game for testing in ANY semester! I am in my last semester of nursing school and we still get some things thrown in that we were briefly mentioned at the beginning of school or even taught back in our Nutrition Science class WAY before we were in nursing school! In regards to "fair" questioning...i'm sure you have heard the phrase "life is not fair", it definitely applies here.

Roland · Feb 7, 2004

ALSO read her text book. We buy the text books a semester ahead of time and read them over summer break! In addition, she met with the instructor to ascertain the questions that she missed, and they involved interpretations of cardiac rhythms, a subject not covered in any of her previous classes, but which WILL be covered on the syllabus towards the last third of the semester. Indeed, the instructor admitted that she hadn't even read the test questions in advance, nor considered the accuracy of the answers. Futhermore, she indicated that they used an "in house" test bank that didn't always correlate with the text book (since the test bank goes back over ten years and some information has changed). Her defense was that what is fair for one is fair for all, and that since the class average was PASSING there were no problems. Never mind that NO ONE scored an "A" or a "B" on the exam.

Passing may be good enough for them, but a "C" is FAILING as far as most graduate programs are concerned. I TAUGHT several classes of Corpmen in the Navy (esentially medics for all of you landlubbers out there) and I AGONIZED over the fairness, and accuracy of every question that I asked on my exams (and the students were NOT paying several thousand dollars for my instruction each semester). So seriously did I take the matter that I can still remember many of the questions that I asked to this day. Now are you going to tell me that it's OKAY for an instructor not even to READ the questions she asks on an exam? Sorry, but that is the height of arrogance and hubris as far as I am concerned and reflects a total lack of professionalism.

Now if our experience were an isolated experience I would dismiss them as the short comings of the school that she chose. However, I OFTEN read of experiences such as this on this board! It appears as if these sort of experiences are almost systemic, and frankly it perplexes me as much or more as it causes me angst. I start from the proposition that most educated Americans, are fair minded people who want to be seen as JUST. I think this to be especially true in the world of academia. However, with regard to NURSING education this proposition doesn't SEEM to resonate with as much vibrancy. I have had some TOUGH chemistry, biology, math, and physics professors in my over 200 credits of higher education. The vast majority even of the bastXXX's were concerned about their tests being fair and accurate. What is more most of them viewed exams as a LEARNING experience and strongly encouraged carefully reviewing the questions that students missed. In nursing school (at least in our experience) there is almost a discouragement to the notion of carefully reviewing your old exams. I would think that if the primary concern is about actually teaching future nurses, that it would be just the opposite.

unikuelady, RN · Feb 7, 2004

There are good instructors and there are bad instructors. Is the problem with just 1 instructor/class or is it the entire nursing program. You have options. Take your concerns to the program director, college director, grin and bear it, change schools, or continue to gripe. I went to a community college that had a reputation for being very difficult to get through the program as well as getting into it in the first place. All students in my class were informed on the first day that WE are responsible for knowing/understanding every bit of information given to us via lecture, reading, clinical lab assignments. NO EXCUSES. We could even be approached in the hallway between classes and verbally quizzed by any of the instructors at any time. (although this would not affect our grade....but no-body wanted to look like an idiot). All students that were accepted into the program were expected to excel. We were made to feel like winners. This made everyone want to succeed. The NCLEX pass rate was 97% for my class. Were some of the text questions unfair? outdated? Yes. If a student can prove that a question/answer was incorrect or not covered in a lecture-then the question was thrown out. But guess what? How would you know that if you didn't read all the information and be attentive at all lectures? I feel very lucky that I attended the nursing school/program that I did. I have worked bedside nursing for the past 5 years and I have seen how 4 different nursing schools have prepared their students for clinic rotations. There are 2 that I would not want their graduates caring for me. We nurses are caring for sicker/more complicated patients now than ever before. IMO We must be responsible for our own knowledge-education needs. :)

Cibbie · Feb 7, 2004

Roland.

I can definately understand what you are talking about. I graduated at the age of 35 from a diploma nursing program that had similar problems. Several of us split the reading, summarized our sections and shared the notes to save time and effort since the amount of reading is enormous. I also taped the lectures and did fill in notes so as to not miss points the instructor may have touched on (and may end up on an exam). We too often had to do general exams that were originally prepared for other nursing programs and so did not even cover some of the subjects tested. It is EXTREMELY frustrating after doing all the reading and studying of all the books, notes, handouts, extra readings, etc. and still missing alot.

My daughter is in university now and is finding the same problem in her Biology class. When she confronted the instructor he said that it was too bad but he wasn't going to change a thing (all but a small handful of the class failed the midterms and even they barely got a passing grade and alot of them are usually straight A or A+ honor students). This could greatly decrease their chances of succeeding down the road. My daughter ended up dropping out of the class instead of ending up with a poor grade. She wants to be a dental hygenist and the school will not even look at you unless you have at least a B+ or better - especially in the sciences. If the schools are going to use general tests they should at least provide the study references that go along with the tests.

While I agree that once you get out into the big bad world, life doesn't follow the book, when a student is trying to cram SO much knowledge into their brains in so little time, it would be nice to at least be taught or be given the references to the subjects tested on. Some of our instructors would add "the following books may be used on the exam for this section" and though they were not required reading, at least we knew that it was possible that some of our questions may come from those references and so we made sure one of us at least would read and summarize the info.

Our nursing program was good in the respect that they realized that there are many different techniques of learning and of nursing and while some things or methods may be different, the end result is the same. Our instructors were from all over North America and from many different types of programs. After not being able to agree on some of the methods to do our nursing skills (hands on), they developed a program which taught the principles behind the skill and a very basic outline to get from A to Z and let us work in groups of 6 - 8 students in the nursing lab to figure out the safest way to do the task/skill for both the patient and the nurse. There was a lot of trial and error on our part but at least it was in the lab and we had our peer group offering suggestions and criticing our ideas. We learned to do problem solving and I've found it has really helped out in the real world when things go wrong when you least expect.

Sorry for being so long winded. And Roland, at least the RN licencing exams are common sense and general and don't test the piddly nit picking bits of knowledge the same way some of the classes do.

Still learning every day.

Carol. :)

Speculating · Feb 7, 2004

Originally posted by Cibbie
Roland.
I can definately understand what you are talking about. I graduated at the age of 35 from a diploma nursing program that had similar problems. Several of us split the reading, summarized our sections and shared the notes to save time and effort since the amount of reading is enormous. I also taped the lectures and did fill in notes so as to not miss points the instructor may have touched on (and may end up on an exam). We too often had to do general exams that were originally prepared for other nursing programs and so did not even cover some of the subjects tested. It is EXTREMELY frustrating after doing all the reading and studying of all the books, notes, handouts, extra readings, etc. and still missing alot.
My daughter is in university now and is finding the same problem in her Biology class. When she confronted the instructor he said that it was too bad but he wasn't going to change a thing (all but a small handful of the class failed the midterms and even they barely got a passing grade and alot of them are usually straight A or A+ honor students). This could greatly decrease their chances of succeeding down the road. My daughter ended up dropping out of the class instead of ending up with a poor grade. She wants to be a dental hygenist and the school will not even look at you unless you have at least a B+ or better - especially in the sciences. If the schools are going to use general tests they should at least provide the study references that go along with the tests.
While I agree that once you get out into the big bad world, life doesn't follow the book, when a student is trying to cram SO much knowledge into their brains in so little time, it would be nice to at least be taught or be given the references to the subjects tested on. Some of our instructors would add "the following books may be used on the exam for this section" and though they were not required reading, at least we knew that it was possible that some of our questions may come from those references and so we made sure one of us at least would read and summarize the info.
Our nursing program was good in the respect that they realized that there are many different techniques of learning and of nursing and while some things or methods may be different, the end result is the same. Our instructors were from all over North America and from many different types of programs. After not being able to agree on some of the methods to do our nursing skills (hands on), they developed a program which taught the principles behind the skill and a very basic outline to get from A to Z and let us work in groups of 6 - 8 students in the nursing lab to figure out the safest way to do the task/skill for both the patient and the nurse. There was a lot of trial and error on our part but at least it was in the lab and we had our peer group offering suggestions and criticing our ideas. We learned to do problem solving and I've found it has really helped out in the real world when things go wrong when you least expect.
Sorry for being so long winded. And Roland, at least the RN licencing exams are common sense and general and don't test the piddly nit picking bits of knowledge the same way some of the classes do.

Still learning every day.
Carol. :)

During my stent in nursing school we had problems with questions now and again. We were aloud to protest, but had to do so in a very formal way. I believe we were even limited to two questions per test per student to dispute. The question was then heard in front of all the nursing instructors. If your appeal was warranted they would look at the test question further and the percentage of all of the students pass/fail ...on that specific question. If the percentages added up the questions was thrown out. Many times the instructors would do this themselves and the top two questions missed would be thrown out of the test for all students. I half to admit I have zero issues with the way they handled the situation - in hindsight. This only applied if you took the extra effort to handle your protest formally; generally, the students weren't comfortable enough in their own argument to take it to the student board.

Altra, BSN, RN · Feb 7, 2004

Originally posted by Roland
At the very least the students should have the opportunity to present their case in some sort of rational, intellectual, discussion with the teacher. Would you have considered it fair if they had asked questions about differential calculus or ancient greek history on the test as well? What tresspass of equitable testing practice would meet YOUR threshold for protest without being classified as acting as a cry baby? Perhaps, you would suffer any inequity without protest, and that is your right.

However, part of training GREAT nurses is reinforcing people who QUESTION the status quo when they perceive wrongs being committed! ... Maybe if nurses were not beaten into an attitude of submission even while they were students they would be more inclined to speak up on the job preventing more of these types of "mistakes". I remember over a year ago reading about a nursing student in New Mexico or Arizona, who shot his instructors for what he considered to be unfair treatment (perhaps his name was Robert Alvarez?). At the time I felt he was "just" another loon who killed because he didn't get his way. Now after witnessing the fundamental unfairness that I've seen time and again his motive seems less preposterous. Nothing justifies violence in a civilized society, but acting in fundamentally unfair ways in matters that intimately affect peoples lives and futures promotes that very sort of responce. Especially, when it is done in a situation and context where those who perceive themselves adversely affected have no reasonable recourse in which to present their case or grievance without fear of likely backlash.

No, I don't think I'm being intellectually dishonest, nor do I suffer inequity without protest.

However, I do try to maintain my sense of perspective.

I am not by any stretch of the imagination SuperWoman-Nursing Student. I have taken exams where I've been very disappointed in my grade. In my nursing classes, we have a post-test review where the instructor goes over every question and supplies the correct answer and the rationale. Last semester, this process degenerated to the point where some students argued nearly every question they got wrong. So now, we still have the review but questions are deferred to a private meeting with the instructor. I wholeheartedly agree with this decision, for this reason: when you take the NCLEX and/or GRE or other grad school exams ... to whom will you argue if you perceive a question to be unfair?? Yes, there are test questions that stick out in my mind where when I heard the answer my first thought was, "you've got to be kidding!" Two of these I have discussed privately with my instructor. I was given credit for one answer, but not the other. As I said, I try to maintain my sense of perspective, and realize that I have bigger fish to fry in the long run.

Roland, if you and/or your wife (and I have to say that I find it curious that, at least in this thread, it is her classes that you're ranting about...) find that the quality of teaching in the program you're attending to be that poor, you can always vote with your feet, and take your tuition dollars elsewhere.

Buddhakan · Feb 7, 2004

Well having lurked a bit, I notice that some have commented that "informed" students would be wise to check the Pass Rates of schools, however as with most things that information does not seem to be readily available.

I'll seek it out on my own but if anyone wants to save me the legwork, it would be much appreciated.

Good Luck all and have a great day.

BK