Do I REALLY need a BSN?

[myschuler]

Hi. I just graduate with my ADN as a second career. Before that, I was full time mom and before that I was an attorney (yeah, weird, I know). So, I'm hearing here and there that if I want even a chance at a hospital residency position (I want to be in the ICU one day), I need a BSN. But I keep thinking, "really? I already have a B.A. and a J.D.!" My original plan was to work, gain experience, and then go for a masters in a clinical specialty. But now, I'm now sure. I just can't believe that all my other experience and education doesn't count, especially when the BSN program really doesn't have any clinical component -- it's just more research and writing. I'm working in a really well run SNF, so I'm not really unhappy, but my dream has been to be in the ICU. I'll do what it takes but I'd like to know what other people have heard before I jump back into school. Thanks!

[BostonFNP, APRN]

I completely agree about nurse staffing levels being a factor in mortality rates. But the topics of staffing levels and nurse education and their effect on mortality rates are mutually exclusive and should have been examined in that way if the authors really wanted to imply that RN education levels affected patient outcomes.

They aren't mutually exclusive at all. Hospitals that are interested in improving outcomes can improve staffing ratios, increase the the education of the nursing workforce, and improve nursing work environment all simultaneously. Many hospitals have done this recently as part of achieving Magnet status.

I can not trust based on just their say-so that they completely and objectively factored all impertinent data while they factored in only relevant data.

Of course science is not perfect and it is never possible to account for "all" factors but that is why we have statistics. The authors are able to conclude that the results noted are not due to chance alone. And in this particular case, they also controlled for unidentified confounders and found they were not statistically significant in aggregate.

It was not original research. I also must ask why they didn't want to take the time to do a completely original study on nurse education levels. And then looking at who supported the study, I question as to whether it was truly unbiased. Don't know if Aiken is still teaching classroom nursing courses, but I highly doubt she would have accepted a paper from a student that was built on a previous paper handed in. I spoke with a couple of Univ. of Penn nurses and they didn't even know who she was.

This is original research. It used existing data but the rest of the study was entirely new. The vast majority of clinical research uses databases of retrospective data (like NHANES and WHO). This is very common in research and it covered in 100-level research method courses.

As far as your "contacts" at UPenn not knowing who she was, she is the Director of the Center for Health Outcomes and Policy Research. I am not sure what you are implying by that other than that your contacts were ignorant.

You seem to like the word conspiracy. I really haven't heard the word used much since Oliver Stone's JFK movie. But I am merely saying that there are multiple organizations benefiting from people being driven back to colleges and universities. It's not conspiracy; it's business.

Look up the definition of conspiracy and conspiracy theory. That's why I use the term.

Academia is absolutely a business. But this research is consistent across multiple countries and multiple authors, some of which have universal education.

[ixchel]

Maybe if you take sociology of nursing or theoretical foundations of nursing, you'd actually have half a clue what you're talking about. I further add that maybe a course in research would be helpful as well.

I'm working with BS students now. You know what they're learning? "early signs of sepsis, diabetes complications or new wound healing methods or new methods to accelerate healing and speed recovery"

Literally. Our juniors are learning this during this semester.

Speaking of people crawling out of their cubby-holes, hi, everyone. Nice to pop in again.

AS1, always nice to be dragged back yet again by you. Thanks for the email notification on a 4 year old thread.

[ixchel]

But the topics of staffing levels and nurse education and their effect on mortality rates are mutually exclusive and should have been examined in that way if the authors really wanted to imply that RN education levels affected patient outcomes.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[avengingspirit1]

I have a math and business background in addition to nursing. I know what mutually exclusive means better than most and am adept with statistics. Too many unnamed variables in Aiken's study with the inclusion and exclusion of data based solely on the consensus of those "experts" creating the study. And all those experts were backed by those with pro-BSN agendas such as the AACN. There is much research out there on the many flaws of this study; with more to come as the cost of four year schools continue to rise along with student loan debt. There are many good and bad nurses out there from all types of nursing education. I do agree that nurses need to be current in their practice but only one side is saying that must be done by going thousands of dollars into debt for a BSN at a four year university. Continuing education and certifications are options for the working nurses. But those options don't bring revenue into universities. Again, all nurses whether they are Diploma, Associates or Bachelor prepared make valuable contributions every day and have shown they can adapt to changes in the profession. Too bad nurse's associations no longer recognize that. I'll post it again as to why four year schools want money: I didn't say it; they did.

"200 college and university campuses have closed during the last 10 years due to decreasing enrollments as baby boomers aged" (Nursing Spectrum, Jan. 9, 2012).

"For the past 40 years, institutions of higher learning have been relentlessly replacing professors on the tenure track with contingent faculty, typically part-timers, who cost a whole lot less" (The Weekly Standard, Nov. 16, 2015).

"Hard Times on Campus - Declining Enrollment Means Declining Revenue For Colleges" (Philadelphia Inquirer, Jan. 31, 2016)

[BostonFNP, APRN]

There is much research out there on the many flaws of this study

Cite them then. Just list all of studies on the "flaws of this study" below so we can all read them.

Again, all nurses whether they are Diploma, Associates or Bachelor prepared make valuable contributions every day and have shown they can adapt to changes in the profession. Too bad nurse's associations no longer recognize that.

Can you cite a state or national nursing association that has stated that they do not value some nurses based on academic degree?

This just isn't true. All (well, most) nurses make valuable contributions and have demonstrated basic competency to practice. I don't think anyone has stated otherwise. None of these studies suggest that nurse A, BSN is inherently better than nurse B, ADN nor is anyone suggesting that.

[elkpark]

I do agree that nurses need to be current in their practice but only one side is saying that must be done by going thousands of dollars into debt for a BSN at a four year university.

I don't believe anyone is saying "that must be done by going thousands of dollars into debt for a BSN." There are plenty of BSN completion programs that don't require "thousands of dollars" of debt. When I completed a BSN at a local B&M public university, I was able to go to school, work full-time, and easily pay the cost out of pocket as I went (and with no employer assistance). Not a penny of debt. I've checked the website of my alma mater recently, and they currently report that the full cost of the BSN completion program, including textbooks, fees, everything (and the program is now all online) is ~$6,000. That does not involve "thousands of dollars of debt." There are plenty of other easily affordable BSN completion programs (and, until this year, the costs were entirely tax deductible if you itemized. The new Republican tax bill eliminates deductions for work-related expenses, so that's gone now). If people choose a program that involves them going heavily into debt, that's on them. They should be more savvy "shoppers."

[avengingspirit1]

Do you get paid by this site to troll for comments that don't fit into the university academic mindset; cause you're always on it. For the heck of it, I checked into many of these so-called programs that supposedly will give you a BSN for $6000 or less. One of the many being Western Governors University. I have a four year business degree, a three-year nursing diploma and have done some graduate work. When coursework was evaluated, they were all $16,000-$19,000. They give you that low estimate then later say you need this and that course. Read blogs from nurses and you'll find there were many complaints to the Bureau of Consumer Affairs as well as other organizations about this. If there is some magic kingdom where a nurse could buy (and that's just what you'd be doing as the real world value would be 0) a BSN for $6000 or under most nurses haven't found it.

[avengingspirit1]

Cite them then. Just list all of studies on the "flaws of this study" below so we can all read them.

Can you cite a state or national nursing association that has stated that they do not value some nurses based on academic degree?

This just isn't true. All (well, most) nurses make valuable contributions and have demonstrated basic competency to practice. I don't think anyone has stated otherwise. None of these studies suggest that nurse A, BSN is inherently better than nurse B, ADN nor is anyone suggesting that.

The head of certain state nurse's association said nurses weren't professionals unless they had at least a BSN. That was in no uncertain terms saying that their work, value and contributions are not as respected as other nurses. That was one of the most disparaging comments ever uttered about nurses. The study was implying that patients are in less danger of mortality if they are served by a BSN nurse; and that is simply not true. So if the authors didn't mean to imply that; they should come out and rectify their conclusions.

[BostonFNP, APRN]

The head of certain state nurse's association said nurses weren't professionals unless they had at least a BSN. That was in no uncertain terms saying that their work, value and contributions are not as respected as other nurses. That was one of the most disparaging comments ever uttered about nurses.

You didn't cite anything. Cite your sources for us so we can read what you are talking about.

The study was implying that patients are in less danger of mortality if they are served by a BSN nurse; and that is simply not true. So if the authors didn't mean to imply that; they should come out and rectify their conclusions.

You bounce back and forth between numerous studies and seem to refer to it as "that/this study". The study you were discussing above concluded that if hospitals increased the proportion of BSN+ nurses in their work force then mortality would decrease.

I has been said numerous times but you still seem unable to comprehend: these studies say nothing about individual nurse performance, they do not compare nurse A to nurse B, in fact that is a basic principle to research in general: you need large enough numbers to account for individual variability (statistical power).

[elkpark]

Do you get paid by this site to troll for comments that don't fit into the university academic mindset; cause you're always on it. For the heck of it, I checked into many of these so-called programs that supposedly will give you a BSN for $6000 or less. One of the many being Western Governors University. I have a four year business degree, a three-year nursing diploma and have done some graduate work. When coursework was evaluated, they were all $16,000-$19,000. They give you that low estimate then later say you need this and that course. Read blogs from nurses and you'll find there were many complaints to the Bureau of Consumer Affairs as well as other organizations about this. If there is some magic kingdom where a nurse could buy (and that's just what you'd be doing as the real world value would be 0) a BSN for $6000 or under most nurses haven't found it.

https://www.wcu.edu/WebFiles/PDFs/RNtoBSN-Estimated-Cost-Program.pdf

Western Carolina University - RN to BSN Program

Western Carolina University, Cullowhee NC -- part of the UNC system, CCNE accredited, 96% NCLEX pass rate, estimated complete cost of BSN completion program (four semesters, online with clinical practica arranged in your home community), estimated full cost is ~$3500 for in-state residents (close to $10,000 for out-of-state residents).

How many "thousands of dollars" into debt would an RN working full-time have to go into to afford a $3500 BSN completion program? That's just one example. I'm sure there are others. I have no reason to spend a lot of time looking for them.

And the "real world value" of a BSN isn't "0" if you are a diploma- or ADN-prepared RN and the employers in your area only want to hire BSN-prepared nurses, or if you want to move in a position that requires a BSN, or if you want to go to grad school. I don't really understand your vehemence on this topic.

[avengingspirit1]

The head of certain state nurse's association said nurses weren't professionals unless they had at least a BSN. That was in no uncertain terms saying that their work, value and contributions are not as respected as other nurses. That was one of the most disparaging comments ever uttered about nurses. The study was implying that patients are in less danger of mortality if they are served by a BSN nurse; and that is simply not true. So if the authors didn't mean to imply that; they should come out and rectify their conclusions.

I can't not publish their name for the same reason you won't reveal your real name. I have published links to the research rebutting Aiken's study on other threads concerning this topic. I work for a living and don't have the time to spend hunting for them now. You may feel free to go and hunt for them.

[avengingspirit1]

https://www.wcu.edu/WebFiles/PDFs/RNtoBSN-Estimated-Cost-Program.pdf

Western Carolina University - RN to BSN Program

Western Carolina University, Cullowhee NC -- part of the UNC system, CCNE accredited, 96% NCLEX pass rate, estimated complete cost of BSN completion program (four semesters, online with clinical practica arranged in your home community), estimated full cost is ~$3500 for in-state residents (close to $10,000 for out-of-state residents).

How many "thousands of dollars" into debt would an RN working full-time have to go into to afford a $3500 BSN completion program? That's just one example. I'm sure there are others. I have no reason to spend a lot of time looking for them.

And the "real world value" of a BSN isn't "0" if you are a diploma- or ADN-prepared RN and the employers in your area only want to hire BSN-prepared nurses, or if you want to move in a position that requires a BSN, or if you want to go to grad school. I don't really understand your vehemence on this topic.

My vehemence is the Aiken study being promulgated as Gospel truth by organizations such as the AACN. Nothing wrong is someone chooses to get a BSN, Associates, or Diploma. As long as they provide competent care.