Do you agree this was unethical?

Nurses Career Support

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I am a new graduate and I've been relentlessly hunting for a job since I got my license two months ago. Recently, a fellow graduate who I remained friends with throughout school called me to excitedly announce that she got a job. It was at a hospital that I've been trying desperately to get into, talking to everyone I could and leaving messages with recruiters, nurse managers, and HR people. I was genuinely very happy for her and took her out for a few drinks to celebrate. I asked her how she landed an interview and who she talked to, and she said she literally just put on her interview attire, gathered her portfolio and walked into HR like she had an appointment. She said she told the front desk person that she was scheduled for an interview but she couldn't remember the name of the person who called her in (which she was not), and after a few minutes of trying to figure out who called her, the lady just sent her in to interview with the recruiterss thinking that they call so many people that they misplaced an appointment or something. Apparently the interview went well and she was offered a job two days later.

I was kinda at a loss for words for a second because my brain couldn't decide if that was deceptively smart or really unethical. I just smiled and told her congrats again because I didn't wanna seem like I was being negative because I was jealous or anything. Im happy for her that she got a job, but I'm really annoyed that she cut the corners and lied, whereas I've been nothing but honest and I haven't even gotten someone to give me the time of day. What do you guys think?

I mean...I'm not losing sleep over it or anything. Since I posted this, I haven't even given it much thought. She's still a good friend of mine and she worked just as hard in school as I have. Sometimes she even worked harder since some subjects came easy to me and she had to fight harder for that good grade. She's just a lot more assertive than I am. She's very outgoing and bold, whereas I'm more quiet and reserved. I don't have any hard feelings towards her for doing what she did, it just caught me by surprise. I've since accepted a job offer at a long term care facility. Not my ideal job, but I got it by being honest and I'm just excited to start working. After a year of experience, I'll try again for a hospital position.

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I think this was sketchy as hell and kind of crazy/narcissistic. Even if it's the only episode of wrongdoing on her part, I think it absolutely speaks to her character.

She's extremely lucky not only that she got a job but that she didn't get found out and blackballed from the organization. I wouldn't be surprised if someone wouldn't have tried to report her to the board (though they wouldn't have done anything). She also could have gotten your school in trouble. Hospitals usually don't HAVE to let nursing schools do clinicals there. When I started at school they warned us about a student who got caught in a HIPAA violation and nearly got the school banned from the hospital.

MaxAttack, I don't see why you think the OP's response means she's going to struggle in nursing--though it's true, I have no patience for nurses who are dishonest regarding their care.

I will say that I once said I had experience with an EMR system I didn't have, at least to the extent I knew they meant; from previous extensive experience with computers and EMRs I was certain I could understand and use the system immediately. So I have my own gray area, I guess.

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Specializes in Psychiatry, Community, Nurse Manager, hospice.
Really? How did you come to this conclusion?

For those of you that think this lie was okay, where would you draw the line?

I have more than one argument for why people owe it to society at large to get a job.

1. Without a job, most people are unable to support themselves financially.

2. When people cannot support themselves financially, it falls on society at large to do it for them.

3. Therefore, people owe it to society to get a job when they can.

Also:

1. A working person is a functional member of society. This includes people who work without pay, like homemakers and volunteers.

2. An unemployed person is not a functional member of society.

3. Society needs to have as many members functional as possible, in order to function itself.

4. Therefore, people owe it to society to attain employment.

As far as where I would draw the line: Difficult ethical questions cannot be solved by drawing a line, because there are many factors, although I don't think this particular ethical question is difficult.

In this case I believe the lie was just okay; I wouldn't say it was righteous. It's okay because it was done to get this individual's foot in the door, so that she could be an employed nurse, which is a good thing. She did get some advantage over other applicants, but the advantage is no more unfair than that of a person who was lucky enough to get an interview some other way; for example, by having belonged to the same sorority as the director. So I don't think that what she did was harmful to anyone. It was okay, acceptable. That's not to say that it was righteous.

Sometimes lying is righteous; it's morally right to tell the lie. For example, if your spouse was mauled by a tiger while trying to save you and lost an eye and an ear in the process and said to you, "Do you think I'm ugly now?" It would be wrong for you to say yes, even if you did think your spouse was ugly, and very, very few people would think it was right to do that. Christians included.

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Specializes in psych, addictions, hospice, education.

...therefore it is right to cheat at school, so you can become a nurse, so you will have a job...and if you don't have time to get everything done, it's ok to say you did... ???

I'm truly surprised how many support this!

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Specializes in Psychiatry, Community, Nurse Manager, hospice.
...therefore it is right to cheat at school, so you can become a nurse, so you will have a job...and if you don't have time to get everything done, it's ok to say you did... ???

I'm truly surprised how many support this!

No, it's not right to cheat at school so you can become a nurse. Cheating hurts you, and hurts your patients, because you don't learn the stuff you need to learn. Cheating is a failure to achieve competence.

Not comparable at all.

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That nurse took the job from someone else. It's not like she convinced them to create a job for her, which would be great. She is employed but someone else is not: zero sum. Your argument holds no water. This was not some kind of moral benefit to society.

Though I think your example of a "righteous lie" is ridiculous--the wife knows she isn't physically beautiful anymore, but hopefully the husband can say "you'll always be beautiful to me," which she might actually believe, and therefore continue to trust his opinion--i don't draw QUITE the firm line that some do and would probably lie in a life/death situation. In a nursing example, I pretty much always tell patient families that a patient died peacefully, even if it's not necessarily true.

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Specializes in Psychiatry, Community, Nurse Manager, hospice.
That nurse took the job from someone else. It's not like she convinced them to create a job for her, which would be great. She is employed but someone else is not: zero sum. Your argument holds no water. This was not some kind of moral benefit to society."

Every time one person gets a job, another person does not get that same job. That does not mean the person who got the job has committed a moral wrong against the ones who didn't get the job. In addition, this individual only got an interview out of the behavior in question. She was still chosen over everyone else who got an interview. Getting an interview is often the hardest part of getting a job, because it is often determined by random strokes of luck. Interviewers tire of sifting through hundreds of applications from people who have put in at least dozens of applications, not knowing whether the people they are interviewing really want the job or if it is their second, third, last choice. Most times, people get to the top of the interview list for reasons that have nothing to do with merit, usually it has to do with who they know. Someone with the drive to get herself on the floor and get in the door is showing that she really wants the position. If I was an interviewer, I would see this as a plus. No one wants to hire someone who is really wishing to be somewhere else.

I did not say that the individual's actions were of moral benefit to society. I said that we owe it to society to get a job.

"Though I think your example of a "righteous lie" is ridiculous--the wife knows she isn't physically beautiful anymore, but hopefully the husband can say "you'll always be beautiful to me," which she might actually believe, and therefore continue to trust his opinion--i don't draw QUITE the firm line that some do and would probably lie in a life/death situation. In a nursing example, I pretty much always tell patient families that a patient died peacefully, even if it's not necessarily true.

"

My point was that there is such a thing as a righteous lie, and that even those with very strict standards of veracity would agree. Your point seems to be that you can think of a more likely or less "ridiculous" example of a righteous lie, which is not relevant to the discussion.

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I'm sorry this is hilarious! Gotta give her an A for creativity. Not even on my best day would not have been able to pull this off. Also I would be too nervous that they would catch the lie. Whether it be in orientation or after starting the job. Also her biggest mistake was telling you. I would have taken this to my grave! Nonetheless I wouldn't recommend you do this nursing is a small world and people talk. You will find a job keep hunting

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...therefore it is right to cheat at school, so you can become a nurse, so you will have a job...and if you don't have time to get everything done, it's ok to say you did... ???

I'm truly surprised how many support this!

O please. I don't agree with that this person did, but those are not the same thing at all

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My point was that there is such a thing as a righteous lie, and that even those with very strict standards of veracity would agree. Your point seems to be that you can think of a more likely or less "ridiculous" example of a righteous lie, which is not relevant to the discussion.

I don't agree. Mainly because the term "righteous lie" has religious overtones, and I am an atheist.

I do agree that there are times when telling a lie is the right thing to do- the obvious example being when you are hiding Jews in your attic and the Nazis come banging on your door.

But this was not even close to being in the same league. This was an individual lying for their own self gain.

Your argument that being employed as a working nurse is for the benefit of others, and thus the lie is acceptable is not defensible.

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I think the phrase, 'don't blame the player, blame the game' comes to mind.

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