DNP vs. PhD

[jewelcutt]

Just curious, with all of this DNP talk does anyone think that less people will go for the PhD now. We have so few PhDs as it is I just wonder what will happen with existing nursing doctorates. And what about the DNSc, is that being phased out? Or is it still available?

[raphaela]

I am in the middle of this quandary. I am an NP (both FNP and psychiatric) and have a MPH (which I enjoyed enormously). Essentially that is what a DNP is - a merger of the two programs. For those of you contemplating the DNP, I am told that it is very interesting program. The only problem I see with it, is that if anyone is contemplating a career in academia, the DNP will most likely never be an accepted as a viable tenure track position. But the PhD is unbelievably rigorous. Most drop out, for it is so highly theoretical and I am told deadly dull.

Another consideration is that, let's face it fellow nurses, the profession can't seem to get it's act together, and is not beneath the establishment to offer goofy programs - Clinical Nurse Leader - what in the world is that? - to see them fade into the darkness. It is a disgrace that the Clinical Nurse Specialist is being disestablished. PA's are now filling in the breach that CNS, with a retooling of the programs for RX privileges could have done, in areas such as surgery, neuro, ortho, psych, etc. Could this be a craze where we all go back for our "doctorate", to see it replaced with something new? The 2015 deadline has never been codified, for considering the argument for the point of entry into the profession be a BSN versus AAS has been raging for close to forty years with no resolution, I really can't foresee that the universities eliminating the masters in favor of the doctorate any time soon. Many instructors in university settings only have their masters. Those who have PhDs, most are not even NPs. How can they possibly train DNP's when they themselves trained, nor are NPs?

I have decided on an online DNP program at an established university. It's a respected state university, therefore the tuition is very very reasonable. I will take my time with the classes. I am doing the program as a hedge, so I don't find myself deep into middle age and having to go back to school to compete with the younger doctorally-prepared nurses.

[marineRN]

I am currently in an FNP and plan on going for DNP when finished. I believe that the natural transition will be for DNPs to work as professors in their chosen fields. Any other option is not rational. Who teaches MDs? other MDs not PhDs. With a DNP becoming mandatory by 2015, eventually NPs with PhDs will eventually fade out. Who will go for a DNP then a PhD to teach? PhDs should teach the theory and research classes but the clinical classes should be taught by DNPs, any other argument will only made done by those with PhDs who are protecting their turf.

MarineRN

[elkpark]

I am currently in an FNP and plan on going for DNP when finished. I believe that the natural transition will be for DNPs to work as professors in their chosen fields. Any other option is not rational. Who teaches MDs? other MDs not PhDs. With a DNP becoming mandatory by 2015, eventually NPs with PhDs will eventually fade out. Who will go for a DNP then a PhD to teach? PhDs should teach the theory and research classes but the clinical classes should be taught by DNPs, any other argument will only made done by those with PhDs who are protecting their turf.

MarineRN

Yes, but one problem is that, as mentioned earlier, it remains v. unclear whether DNP-prepared people will be eligible for tenure at many universities or will be permanently relegated to "second class citizen" status within faculties. At the last university in which I taught in the undergrad BSN program (with my lowly little MSN :)), a few years ago, this was already being discussed and the pronouncement from the uni administration was that DNP-prepared people would not be eligible for tenure; they would be permanent "serfs and peons" (my term, not the uni administration's ) like us MSN folks. And this was a run-of-the-mill, not-particularly-distinguished state uni, not a "big name" or particularly rigorous school.

All doctoral degrees are not created equal -- while universities are falling all over themselves to offer DNPs, it remains to be seen how they will receive them when the people who have taken those degrees want to return to teach.

If you look at the documentation about the development of the DNP concept, the original purpose was to create clinicians, not academics. Of course, some will teach, just as many of us MSN-prepared APNs teach, but it's not at all clear that they will have any higher status in academia than we MSN folks do.

(And, BTW, many of the MDs who teach in medical schools do also have PhDs.)

[UVA Grad Nursing]

I think that the potential for tenure will depend on the University. My school (the University of Virginia) has graduated several cohorts of DNPs. Some of these are on faculty at other universities. Two alum from our first cohort are fulltime faculty at James Madison University in Harrisonburg, VA. Faculty at JMU teach 12 credits per term, and there is no expectation of research. Because their nursing school there is primarily focused on education, DNP-prepared faculty are eligible for tenure.

However at universities where research is expected, that will be a key consideration for tenure. DNP programs do not prepare graduates for NIH-level funding (which is considered the 'gold standard' in nursing research). That is a central element of PhD programs.

[marineRN]

But if you stop and think about it.....there is NO other choice. In 2015 ALL NPs will be graduating on the Doctoral level. One must be an NP to teach NPs. Previously there was another option.......MSN NPs with a PhD in something else. Now the entry level NP will be doctoral. I do not know about you, but I highly doubt there are too many who are going to go for a PhD after getting a DNP. So after 10 to 20 years when the PhDs are retiring they will be FORCED to have DNPs as full fledge faculty. What other option is there? They(academic administrators) will leave themselves with NO other option. All of the DNPs will only have to get together and say we are NOT going to get a PhD and you WILL give us tenure. What option are they going to have?????? Have PhDs who are not advance practice nurses teaching? Can you imagine if in Med school(A clinical degree) they had PhDs teaching and not MDs??? Like I said, regardless of what they say now they are going to make it where they have NO choice by demanding all NPs to be DNPs....HAHAHAHHA!!! I do not know how they will be able to avoid it.

~MarineRN

[sirI, MSN, APRN, NP]

In 2015 ALL NPs will be graduating on the Doctoral level.

This isn't correct. Right now, the DNP is just a vision. It has not become a requirement for all APNs to have. This very well may become the terminal degree, but that remains to be seen.

[marineRN]

Thats not correct???? It is my understanding that it has already been decreed by the nursing gods. I know that the programs where I live (DFW) have it set where it is changing at that point. Am I misinformed on this?

[llg, PhD, RN]

But if you stop and think about it.....there is NO other choice.

~MarineRN

Just because someone is hired to teach ... doesn't mean they get tenure. Tenure is a "benefit" that is granted by the university to faculty members who have proven themselves worthy of the honor and privilege. Most faculty members don't have it.

[marineRN]

Right....but what other people have stated is that those with DNPs will not be allowed to earn tenure. I know that not all get it....what I am saying is that they will eventually have to give it to them unless they are going to have a whole department of faculty inelligible for tenure. At which point all they (DNPs) will have to do is get together and say that they must afford them the same opportunities as the rest (simple supply and demand). What other option will they have? I think it is silly that they are going to make all NPs/CRNAs be degreed on the doctoral level, but after doing so they will be forced to use them as faculty for the same programs b/c in short order there will be no NPs with PhDs. Not to mention, with the shortage of faculty in the forseeable future they will be in little position to snear at any doctoral prepared nurse who so wishes to earn 50k at their institution of higher learning.

~MarineRN

[marineRN]

Taken directly from www.aacn.nche.edu:

1. Who will teach DNP students since the role is considered advanced practice?

   
   
   

   
   

   Many of those who currently teach in advanced practice programs will be involved in teaching DNP students, particularly at the beginning level. There will be components of the DNP which will demand doctorally prepared faculty. As programs move forward with development, arrangements will have to be made for joint appointments or articulation agreements. Master's-prepared faculty teaching in APRN programs will have the option to complete the DNP, enhancing their standing within the university and increasing the number of faculty qualified to teach in the DNP program.

   
   
   

   
   

2. What about the opportunity for tenure and promotion for faculty with a DNP?

   
   
   

   
   

   Though primarily an institutional decision, AACN is confident that a DNP faculty member will compete favorably with other practice doctorates in tenure and promotion decisions, as is the case in law, education, audiology, physical therapy, pharmacy, criminal justice, public policy and administration, public health, and other disciplines. AACN data from 2009 show that doctoral students who also teach are just as likely to have a DNP as a PhD. This indicates that graduates of both types of doctoral programs are finding teaching positions.

   
   
   

   
   

3. How will DNP graduates be prepared to assume the nurse educator role?

   
   
   

   
   

   Though a doctorate is the appropriate degree for a faculty role, the DNP program is not designed to prepare educators per se, any more than a PhD does. Graduates from all doctoral programs (PhD or DNP) who wish to be educators should have additional preparation that adds pedagogical skills to their base of clinical practice.

   
   

And lets face it the AACN is the one calling the shots as they are the one who credentials....they will be professors and they will be elligible for tenure...no ifs ands or buts about it.

~MarineRN

[marineRN]

also......

how can we justify efforts to develop the dnp when we have an acute faculty shortage? should we focus on increasing faculty salaries rather than the dnp?

nursing cannot continue to have large numbers of faculty in full-time academic positions without doctorates. one of the frustrating aspects in today's world of academic nursing is the fact that we have been so slow in moving this agenda forward. nursing permits a culture which is accepting of limited educational credentials in a variety of settings. in universities it is increasingly difficult to develop the kind of clinical scholarship and maintain the kind of credibility necessary for first rate programs without a higher level of education among our faculty. the faculty shortage is compounded by the fact that salaries in the academic setting have not kept pace with the service setting. we cannot expect improved salaries until we improve the educational level. the dnp will foster a more highly educated faculty workforce.

[llg, PhD, RN]

Right....but what other people have stated is that those with DNPs will not be allowed to earn tenure. I know that not all get it....what I am saying is that they will eventually have to give it to them unless they are going to have a whole department of faculty inelligible for tenure.

~MarineRN

Which is already the case at many universities -- not only in nursing, but in many other departments as well. I think the overall proportion of university classes taught by adjuncts is approaching 50% -- and then there are the non-tenure track positions on top of that. Many univerisity departments have only a couple tenure track lines these days and some people are debating whether tenure will continue to be a major element in academia in years ahead. As the tenured faculty retire, many of their positions are being converted to non-tenure track positions.

I'm not totally in disagreement with you, marineRN -- it's just that the whole tenure question is a lot more complicated than you make it appear.