DNP vs MSN

Insperation · Jan 16, 2017

Aye Lands and titles...what about honor?

Personally I would be torn between wanting people to call me "Doctor" and not wanting people to call me "Doctor". I'm not going back to school until I find a hospital that will foot the bill, personally.

babyNP., APRN · Jan 16, 2017

I thought so too until I realized they aren't actually clinical hours as approximately 1/2 are spent doing that capstone thing. If I did a DNP program my masters clinical hours would count toward the DNP required hours so I wouldn't have to do additional clinical hours just log hours doing research for my innovative approach to foot washing or whatever. Its disappointing because initially I thought the idea of a DNP sounded excellent until I realized what it entailed, or rather didn't entail.

Well I think it'd be kind of silly for someone like you and I (already in practice) to go back and have clinical hours since we are already practicing independently. In the program I'm doing, I get "credit" for having clinical hours based on a practice evaluation from my supervisor who will submit it to the school. I'll be doing a project (probably QI but I'm still mulling) as well, but those aren't considered "clinical hours."

On the other hand, from what I've seen in programs (and admittedly it's only a few- perhaps this isn't the norm for DNP NP programs) that are from BSN-->DNP (i.e., not a post-masters), it's 1,000 actual clinical hours in addition to a project.

Aromatic · Jan 16, 2017

Ive always wanted to go to an admissions office and ask them what they benefits of their DNP would be. "would i get paid more?, do we learn useful clinical skills?" etc.

Of course the answer would probably be some cliche "you will broaden your knowledge base, expand the already ridiculous amount of worthless nursing research, and learn about healthy policy and making change on a large scale, not just one patient at a time."

all the suckers hear large scale, think of johannes zuckerberg and sign up for it think they'll invent the next printing press/facebook and be crowned queen Flawnce the VIIth with their DNP.

LessValuableNinja · Jan 16, 2017

The recommendation for DNP by 2020 was just that. It is not a requirement or a mandate. However, many programs converted from MSN to DNP in anticipation. The rumor persists and there was never an official retraction or statement that it is not required and not happening.
As far as ADN entry to practice, you may be thinking of the Magnet 80% BSN requirement or the push for majority BSN by 2020, but ADNs can still sit for the NCLEX RN and still comprise more than half those who enter practice.

Yet, when I look at NP programs in my state, very few are SNAP. And the ones that are mostly are DNP OR MSN, not DNP only.

LessValuableNinja · Jan 16, 2017

Aye Lands and titles...what about honor?
Personally I would be torn between wanting people to call me "Doctor" and not wanting people to call me "Doctor". I'm not going back to school until I find a hospital that will foot the bill, personally.

We should try to coin DoctorNurse as a title, and see if it sticks.

Jules A, MSN · Jan 16, 2017

Well I think it'd be kind of silly for someone like you and I (already in practice) to go back and have clinical hours since we are already practicing independently. In the program I'm doing, I get "credit" for having clinical hours based on a practice evaluation from my supervisor who will submit it to the school. I'll be doing a project (probably QI but I'm still mulling) as well, but those aren't considered "clinical hours."
On the other hand, from what I've seen in programs (and admittedly it's only a few- perhaps this isn't the norm for DNP NP programs) that are from BSN-->DNP (i.e., not a post-masters), it's 1,000 actual clinical hours in addition to a project.

But I don't think it would be silly if for example in my field I was able to do clinical hours that expanded my practice knowledge, skills and abilities which I would welcome and anticipated when I first considered the DNP option. Additional in depth pharmacology courses, perhaps a clinical rotation to learn how to do ECT? I don't know but I just didn't expect it would be a majority of more nursing fluff stuff which as it stands now imo it is. I'm already published which was a pita and something I'd never like to do again unless I have to trade that out for precepting twits with zero psych experience to renew my cert when its due next. But hey its not off the table completely for me as I've said I'd be wiling to spend $15,000 and my valuable time blowing through it so I could legitimately say how lame I think the whole fiasco is, similar my feelings on the BSN, and also to refer to my self as Dr. when I felt the need to throw my weight around. :)

Jules A, MSN · Jan 16, 2017

Ive always wanted to go to an admissions office and ask them what they benefits of their DNP would be. "would i get paid more?, do we learn useful clinical skills?" etc.
Of course the answer would probably be some cliche "you will broaden your knowledge base, expand the already ridiculous amount of worthless nursing research, and learn about healthy policy and making change on a large scale, not just one patient at a time."
all the suckers hear large scale, think of johannes zuckerberg and sign up for it think they'll invent the next printing press/facebook and be crowned queen Flawnce the VIIth with their DNP.

I have legit had two, old chicks btw, tell me they did it for "personal enrichment". I don't have a very good poker face but did my best to shove an entire roll in my puss so I could resist expressing the thoughts that immediately came to mind.

LessValuableNinja · Jan 16, 2017

I have legit had two, old chicks btw, tell me they did it for "personal enrichment". I don't have a very good poker face but did my best to shove an entire roll in my puss so I could resist expressing the thoughts that immediately came to mind.

I want a DNP so that when my daughter graduates med school, I can say, "I'm a doctor too.". Then she can roll her eyes, "I know daddy, I know. You're a very very special doctor."

babyNP., APRN · Jan 17, 2017

But I don't think it would be silly if for example in my field I was able to do clinical hours that expanded my practice knowledge, skills and abilities which I would welcome and anticipated when I first considered the DNP option. Additional in depth pharmacology courses, perhaps a clinical rotation to learn how to do ECT? I don't know but I just didn't expect it would be a majority of more nursing fluff stuff which as it stands now imo it is. I'm already published which was a pita and something I'd never like to do again unless I have to trade that out for precepting twits with zero psych experience to renew my cert when its due next. But hey its not off the table completely for me as I've said I'd be wiling to spend $15,000 and my valuable time blowing through it so I could legitimately say how lame I think the whole fiasco is, similar my feelings on the BSN, and also to refer to my self as Dr. when I felt the need to throw my weight around. :)

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Personally, I've been enjoying my post-masters DNP classes.

So far I've taken a negotiation class on dealing with conflict (might seem like fluff, but actually gave me useful strategies for interacting with confrontational parents and how to find the middle ground, putting into context what I deal with many weeks due to the nature of NICU), class on how US health care is organized and writing a business plan for opening a clinic, health care policy (with one of the assignments writing to Congress regarding a health care bill), ethics (always useful in NICU), and epidemiology. This summer I will be taking an embryology class, looking at how teratogens affect the fetus, etc.

Are any of these classes necessary to be a successful NP? No, but they make me a more well-rounded practitioner and have given me a better perspective on the healthcare industry overall and take me out of my comfort zone. So, yes I guess it's for my "personal enrichment" - do you have another roll ready?

As an aside, I'm not going to use the "doctor" title (maybe in academia if I ever teach). I do think it's confusing to patients. I always introduce myself as, "Hello, I'm babyRN, the nurse practitioner."

Jules A, MSN · Jan 17, 2017

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Personally, I've been enjoying my post-masters DNP classes.
So far I've taken a negotiation class on dealing with conflict (might seem like fluff, but actually gave me useful strategies for interacting with confrontational parents and how to find the middle ground, putting into context what I deal with many weeks due to the nature of NICU), class on how US health care is organized and writing a business plan for opening a clinic, health care policy (with one of the assignments writing to Congress regarding a health care bill), ethics (always useful in NICU), and epidemiology. This summer I will be taking an embryology class, looking at how teratogens affect the fetus, etc.
Are any of these classes necessary to be a successful NP? No, but they make me a more well-rounded practitioner and have given me a better perspective on the healthcare industry overall and take me out of my comfort zone. So, yes I guess it's for my "personal enrichment" - do you have another roll ready?
As an aside, I'm not going to use the "doctor" title (maybe in academia if I ever teach). I do think it's confusing to patients. I always introduce myself as, "Hello, I'm babyRN, the nurse practitioner."

Totally cool that you are enjoying your courses and no doubt most anything we learn is a positive experience. I just continue to wonder about the cost vs benefit and general self-inflated state of nursing education, thats all. The ethics, epidemiology and embryology class, which it sounds like would have been important in your masters specialty, all sound interesting to me also. The how to open a clinic might be helpful as an elective for a subset of students or an excellent lecture or two but seriously a full course sounds like overkill. Awesome if you are enjoying your studies and feel they are worth your time and money. As always thanks for adding your experience and no worries I'm never short on eye rolls in fact lately with all the NP shenanigans I seem to be living in a near state of oculogyric crisis, lol.

Trauma Columnist · Jan 17, 2017

Great discussion. I actually was enrolled in a DNP program but took a leave of absence in 2014 and never looked back. I don't want to do research that goes nowhere, I am already politically active in my states APRN organization, I'm in management as an APRN, I'm old so have developed decent coping skills and with 24 years of nursing experience + military exp prior to that, I can talk to pts/families about end of life without any difficulty.

I just didn't see the reason to cont with the DNP...however, maybe I'm just old and crotchety like my husband tells me...lol

LessValuableNinja · Jan 17, 2017

Just playing devil's advocate, but: you could get the same out of an MHA or an MBA with healthcare concentration. Isn't a DNP supposed to be... A different thing?