Different kind of retaliation

[ZZTopRN]

I was in a RN refresher program until a few days ago. I got through the 2 months of classroom with an average of 92%. No problems there. But when I got to the clinicals in a hospital seeking magnet status, I really got trashed. I am older than the instructor, I think she is about 63, looks 110. After the first few days I was very fascinated with all the outpatient procedures and surgery. I wanted to apply. My "instructor" started discouraging me from the start constantly telling me I couldn't keep up with the young nurses, etc. This is not for you. Then why am I here? Do what you want, etc. I wanted to apply for a job in ambulatory care, and I was approached while orienting in that department to apply. I was told by the instructor that "they were just being nice? I tried very hard to not let this "don't set yourself up for failure" business and the age discrimination get me down, but it did finally. So I called the head of the refresher program. Her response was "you two just don't get along, try to talk to her." I tried it again, thought it was working, but found out she was so incensed by my complaining about her, she subtly worked her evil against me.

She pretends to be a sweet, grandmotherly, mother hen to the young students, and gets all the facts about you she can, then uses it against you, (me). Everybody loves her, not because of her being such a great instructor, she only does that in endo with the IVs. But this grandmotherly person is so evil. The s.... hit the fan about 4 days before I was to finish my clinicals at this hospital. I was being harassed by one of the employees about getting my "work done." We leave at a certain time, and she came to where I was and said "arent you finished," all the other students are gone." Much, much more but won't get into that.

I told this instructor about it and she said "you should be up to speed by speed by now." Sure, I've been out 10 years, this was supposed to be learning experience I thought. I am supposed to be at the level of a well-oriented experienced nurse? I really felt like it was free labor. I guess she told the hospital staff, and all of a sudden every unit that I had been in said negative things about me and the instructor told me I couldn't continue in the program. I guess she thought she was being a hero by protecting the hospital from anything negative and looking like the good guy.

At the end of the unit I was in, it was a pediatric unit but was really a med/surg overflow unit. Lots of travelers worked there. We supposedly had our choice of patients but I was assigned newborn care which scared me because I never worked in that area, and also it was not going to be any use to me because I wanted adult medicine experience. I guess that was used against me. Also, I had to help with a patient transfer from an OR stretcher that weighed 290 lbs, dead weight, and pulled a muscle in my back and the next time I was asked to help I said I couldn't do it because I had a previous muscle strain, not related to nursing. However, I never made a complaint to the hospital about it.

I was told also that I would not get a certificate for completing the refresher program and stated I was going to file a grievance with the school which, by the way, is approved by the State BON. The director of the refresher program was exceedingly sweet to me, the Director of Nursing was the same. But the instructor for clinicals called me incompetent, I knew from the beginning you were going to be trouble, (I persisted in I could do what the younger nurses), everybody says you are incompetent, everybody said the had to go back to do my work over. well, I'm sure you get the story.

I also had applied to the recruiters for this huge "chain" corporate hospital and had 2 calls in l day after I sent my application in. Told I would be called by a NM at the hospital I was at. Once they knew what instructor I was with, I was called and told there was no openings.

I know what they are doing. While the school directors are being so above-board, this instructor is destroying me. She is popular with the young nurses, because she mostly entertains them. And she just trashes me to my face, when no one is around, and know that she is being backed to the hilt with the school administration. When I calmly told her I was going to file a grievance, she started yelling at me, calling me incompetent etc. "I have been doing this for 25 years."

The director of the school told me "why would you think she was discriminating because of your age." Give me a break. If she has been there for 25 years, how are they going to get rid of her. Are they saying they are going to hire at her age had she not been there 25 years?

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts. I am just so furious to be treated in such an inhumane way. It is just so awful that we think we live in a free world but corporate america has us well under-control.

I

[Gabie Baby]

ZZTopRN, please forgive me for saying so but I think your attitude is part of the trouble. Your remarks about free labor were not welcome, I'm sure. You know that students in every discipline, be it social work, medicine, car repair, or dogcatcher have to learn - by doing. So all students give free labor, you could say, in exchange for the chance to learn their chosen line of work. I don't really know of any way around this.

Also, your being older tells me that you would likely have a harder time with tolerating school and anything you perceived as non-essential than would a younger student. It's understandable. And since you've been working for a while already, you have already dealt with being responsible and with being the boss. It's hard to regress to student status after that, even to advance onesself.

I hope this all works out to your benefit eventually but I also hope you will think long and hard in the future before you criticize the boss, the program, the organization. You must realize that, unless you can afford legal help and lots of stress, you are the small fish in a big pond. Small fish must learn their place. I'm not saying not to fight or to be a doormat. But fully assess the situation, count the cost before you start the battle. How would you have felt if you were the instructor and a student challenged you and criticized you the way you did your instructor? We have to use wisdom and not start something we can't finish and all that.

Again, please forgive me for speaking plainly. I know a lot about this sort of thing because I've personally gotten myself into rouble sometimes by being too verbal or not showing respect.

An apology and a request for mercy to your instructor could pay off, if you can bring yourself to do that. I wish you well.

[Gabie Baby]

Oh, I was just re-reading your OP.

Way too much talking with your instructor. Just smile, be nice, be QUIET. DO NOT tell your personal information at work or in school or to ANYONE if you don't want it made widely known or used against you.

Geez, ZZTOP RN, please learn to protect yourself.

[gr8rnpjt, RN]

Steve, I'm to the right of Rush Limbaugh, and am all for capitalism and free enterprise; however, our healthcare delivery system is broken. When insurance companies (including medicare and medicaid) determine the treatments and length of stays that are OK for each and every patient, rather than those decisions being made by the patient and their MD, something is terribly wrong.

I don't know what the solution to the problem is (and I am violently opposed to socialized medicine) but SOMETHING is going to HAVE to be done.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but to put the blame on insurance companies. They do not determine the treatments and lenght of stays. the employers write the plan and insurance companies administer the plan. We do what medicare and medicaid want us to do. I know from where I speak I have been in managed care for over 20 years and it is not up to the insurance company, although we get the bad rap, but we are doing exactly as we are told. And premiums are kept at a minimum despite skyrocketing prices for drugs and equipment and supplies that we have to cover. There is no easy answer but it seems to be very easy to place the blame at the insurance companys feet. But you are misinformed, the employer writes the plan and what is covered and what is not. We are doing what we are told.

[clee1]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but to put the blame on insurance companies. They do not determine the treatments and lenght of stays. the employers write the plan and insurance companies administer the plan. We do what medicare and medicaid want us to do. I know from where I speak I have been in managed care for over 20 years and it is not up to the insurance company, although we get the bad rap, but we are doing exactly as we are told. And premiums are kept at a minimum despite skyrocketing prices for drugs and equipment and supplies that we have to cover. There is no easy answer but it seems to be very easy to place the blame at the insurance companys feet. But you are misinformed, the employer writes the plan and what is covered and what is not. We are doing what we are told.

Some valid points here, if not all entirely accurate.

Sorry, friend, but insurance companies and medicare/aid d@mn well DO set Tx parameters and length of stay. Ever heard of DRGs? IBM didn't make those up. Doctors can treat for XY&Z, but they are only going to get paid for AB&C because some gooberment bureaucrat or insurance bean-counter says so. Premiums are kept at a minimum, my friend, because the free market will have the business going to insurers that are slightly less greedy if they don't.

Tell me also, why should a 60 y/o widower have prenatal and maternity coverage? Why should a teatotaler have coverage for drug/alcohol Tx? Why should non-smokers have to pay to subsidise coverage for smokers? (and I am a smoker) Why can't I buy a policy to cover major accidents/illnesses/diseases with a large deductable at a reasonable premium and pay for my own routine MD visits and meds out-of-pocket? Why does my employer/government get to decide what I should or should not be covered for?

I'll tell you why. The HC corporations and insurance companies are in business to make money. I have nothing whatsoever against that, but they have used the power of their lobbying efforts to get state/federal lawmakers to establish one-size-fits-all coverage so as to insure their continued quarter-to-quarter profitability. Period. End of story.

My point is that individuals should be able to use the free market to get the coverage they need for themselves and their families without being pigeonholed into "group" coverage by their employers and the gooberment.

If individuals had to price-shop for their healthcare needs, the prices would quit going up at double-digit rates every year. Bet on that. Watch what happens when the corner stores get medical clinics going: CVS, Walmart, and the like. I'll bet my next paycheck that you'll start seeing insurance premiums moderate, and prices for h/c services fall.

[ZZTopRN, BSN, RN]

Gaby baby:

Your points are well taken. But I did not criticize the instructor to her face. I only asked questions that weren't answered and documented them, then I brought all the facts as they were. The untrue things that were said, like putting me in an area I never was, etc. They are negotiating with me about resolving things, I started back in the IV Cert class this morning. Further negotiations to follow. I had the mean instructor today but everything was very friendly and any questions I had were answered or demonstrated appropriately. I am not just a loose cannon running around like a fired rocket. So I think things are working out. The class is great as was the theory that I have my certificate for. Unfortunately, this instructor was a bad apple, a real bad apple. There some hospitals that are better to work in that others, same of some departments are better to work in with others. But I have never had to stand up for myself before because I had never had one that yelled "you are incompetent, you don't carry your load, you are an unsafe nurse." Then ask what the problem was but never got an answer. Strangely enough this instructor has not been allowed to back to several hospitals. She still refuses my clinical certificate but that also is being worked on, by possibly having the other instructor check me off. This instructor was not allowed in the clinical areas, so it was a lot of politics. I feel very good about the IV Cert class. So anyway, thanks for your input. I vented, I went to class which I thoroughly enjoyed so I am allright for now.

[ZZTopRN, BSN, RN]

Clee1

Your post was very good and informative. I have seen it from so many viewpoints. I had posted a question on the board asking what a "non-profit" hospital was. The answers were that they invest profits back into the hospital. I can understand some of it and I know they get large donations and float propositions for more money to build, etc. But what are the proportions for the investing back into the hospital and what proportions of the nonprofit go elsewhere? I worked for a small hospital a long time ago before the DRG's, but you could almost see the docs standing on the street corners bringing the patients in. I don't know the answer.

[clee1]

I don't have the answer either ZZ. Somebody alot smarter than I am will have to formulate an answer for our present single-payer system ills.

I'll tell you this, though: I have a good friend, an instructor at my NS, that is an MD. He is phasing out of his practice as a physician and phasing into fulltime teaching. He keeps a small stable of cash-paying/fast account clients that he has had for years, but he is not accepting new ones. His reason for leaving practice: "Medicade/Medicare and the insurance companies don't want to pay claims, yet my malpractice insurance premiums have gone up 1000% over the last 15 years - and I've NEVER been sued!"

We, as a Nation, have allowed corporate paper-pushers, gooberment bureaucrats, and professional politicians to dictate how/when we use health care services. I believe this is planned, so as to force socialization of healthcare. I think the only salvation will be for doctors to cut prices and accept only cash or short-term accounts like they used to in our grandparents day. Competition will force prices down, and the insurance companies will "get real" when they see their profits disappearing because people won't need them as much anymore.

[ZZTopRN, BSN, RN]

Clee1:

You did not "hijack" this thread. Corporations are not separate from nursing. It is they who govern what will be for the nurses. Just as you say, the government puts healthcare into boxes. I understand about your friend the MD, taking for pay only patients. I had a doc about 8 years ago that I just loved, was a good one, a kind one, one that would treat some of the homeless people without charge. Now I don't see him anymore because he is cash only. I was talking to my allergy doctor about what he was doing, and he said pretty much the same thing as your friend did. How can you blame them? How many more are going to go this way? And as you say, you sure don't want to go to socialized medicine. That truly scares me. I am fortunate to have 2 great docs I trust my life with, not that I have any serious problems, but I sure wouldn't want to lose them because of not being able to pay cash.

You are so right about insurance companies and medicare limiting the stay of patients. I was taking care of a patient with MRSA who had to have surgery on her leg to remove it. She was supposed to go home the next day by herself with visits from home care. You should have seen the fight that ensued between the hospital and the insurance company. He told me he was an ex-marine and he knew how to play politics. He sure knew what he was talking about because his daughter went home on his time table, not the insurance company's.

As you know, this kind of business affects the nurses, puts them in precarious positions as far as safety goes. Nurses are pushed absolutely to the limit with this assembly line "industrialized medicine." It scares me.

[ZZTopRN, BSN, RN]

P.S. Clee1:

I loved the last part of your post about the insurance companies "getting real." Oh, to have that happen.

[marcrn]

clee1:

you did not "hijack" this thread. corporations are not separate from nursing. it is they who govern what will be for the nurses. just as you say, the government puts healthcare into boxes. i understand about your friend the md, taking for pay only patients. i had a doc about 8 years ago that i just loved, was a good one, a kind one, one that would treat some of the homeless people without charge. now i don't see him anymore because he is cash only. i was talking to my allergy doctor about what he was doing, and he said pretty much the same thing as your friend did. how can you blame them? how many more are going to go this way? and as you say, you sure don't want to go to socialized medicine. that truly scares me. i am fortunate to have 2 great docs i trust my life with, not that i have any serious problems, but i sure wouldn't want to lose them because of not being able to pay cash.

you are so right about insurance companies and medicare limiting the stay of patients. i was taking care of a patient with mrsa who had to have surgery on her leg to remove it. she was supposed to go home the next day by herself with visits from home care. you should have seen the fight that ensued between the hospital and the insurance company. he told me he was an ex-marine and he knew how to play politics. he sure knew what he was talking about because his daughter went home on his time table, not the insurance company's.

as you know, this kind of business affects the nurses, puts them in precarious positions as far as safety goes. nurses are pushed absolutely to the limit with this assembly line "industrialized medicine." it scares me.

i work in the insurance industry and about to let out a dirty little secret.

just wisper the words "lawyer" and / or "state insurance commisioner" and see them shake in thier boot.

[clee1]

i work in the insurance industry and about to let out a dirty little secret.

just wisper the words "lawyer" and / or "state insurance commisioner" and see them shake in thier boot.

uh huh!

that right there tells you that they know what they're doing is very shady.

they count on the general population being "sheep" and doing what those in "authority" tell them to. bullsqueeze, i say.

[JentheRN05, RN]

I think that you did simply have a bad experience, a real bad one, but bad none-the-less.

Is there not another school you could get a refresher course on? Why take a refresher course anyway? I mean couldn't you apply at a job and request to be put in a nurse tech position for 2 - 3 months until you feel your skills are up to par. Just bypass the darn school and get to the end result. It's where you want to be anyway.

Maybe I don't know rules and regulations though, if you've been out of nursing for 10+ years do you HAVE to take a refresher course? I am working alongside a nurse who was out for 12 years and she did not take a refresher course, she is doing fine. A little slow on things but over time she will pick up the pace. I'm not at all concerned about that.

If I were in your situation I would've done the same things. I believe the bullying suggestioned mentioned early on was a good one. That's in fact what was going on.

I say screw the place and move on. Good luck in your future.