difference between Nurse Anesthetist and anesthesiologist

Maxs · May 9, 2005

meandragonbrett said:
Maxs,
The 13 states you are refering to are for medicare cases. In these 13 states CRNAs are able to provide anesthesia services without anesthesiologist involvement. CRNAs collaborate with surgeons, dentists, podiatrists, and anesthesiologists in ALL states. Also, where did you get your job descriptions? The CRNA job description that you've provided make out CRNAs to be technicians who are not autonomous and blindly follow standing orders from physicians.

Hey I didn't make those job descriptions and it's posted on all almost every website that has job descriptions. If you have a better job description for both of them, It would help if you can post it so it doesn't make CRNA's loook like technicians. I try to take my personal biases out of this and post what I see and that seemed like the best one. Notice I said in some states CRNAs can practice independently therefore they're entitled to the duties an Anesthesiologist will be performing and the job description will be equivalent to that of an Anesthesiologist, However, in most states that's what is posted for the job description.

Maxs

deepz · May 9, 2005

Maxs said:
.......I said in some states CRNAs can practice independently ........

Sorry, bro, you're in way over your head here.

The Opted-Out States do indeed number 13 so far, yes, but that concerns only the Part A of Medicare, i.e., Conditions of Participation (COP) for *hospital* reimbursement. (Not Part B. CRNAs have billed independently under Part B since ~1987.) The COP concerns reimbursement only -- not State laws regarding anesthesia, not practice guidelines, not institutional bylaws for clinical privileges, etc. Reimbursement *only*. Many times the A$A has attempted to give to, for example, the TEFRA Seven Conditions the full force of a Proscribed Standard of Care. It is none such, but only applies, again, to reimbursement. Entire volumes have been written on this subject, so no one might be expected to grasp it all without investing a lot of time in reading up. (There have been previous threads on the subject on AllNurses BB)

In short, CRNAs legally practice independently (of any MDA) in all States. All 50 of them. And, thanks to Uncle Sam, in quite a few foreign countries. Not to mention at sea.

As someone previously noted, "We don't need no stinking badges."

.

Laughing Gas · May 10, 2005

The portion of this forum about CRNA's and salaries is possibly one of the lamest things I've read this far.

First off, I would stay in anesthesia for less than I was making as an RN. I love it. I have dreams about anesthesia. I eat sleep and read it most of the day. I cannot afford to keep it as a financially fruitless hobby. I have a family with 3 kids. My decision to ruin my life for several years was not based soley on my desire to administer anesthesia. The promise of a better life for my wife and kids played a big factor in our decision. My wife only has a passing interest in anesthesia, but she cares about being able to afford retirement and college for our kids.

If you want to attract the best and brightest, you need bait. I doubt I could have talked my wife into allowing us into the brink of financial ruin if the promise of much brighter days was not there. Fact of life, right or wrong... you want the big fish, you use the big lure. So, to prove that CRNA's are in it primarily for patient care and not money, we should donate all monies in excess of 45k to our favorite animal shelter.

ECMOismygame · May 10, 2005

.........................

yoga crna · May 10, 2005

Any discussion about CRNA income MUST be based upon the value of administering anesthesia. If you have a problem with this, look at the pharmacology of the drugs we use and the short safety:risk ratio. What is the VALUE of administering anesthesia for a c-section where both the mother and fetus are at risk. We are paid for our education, skills, experience, ability to put our patients to sleep and wake them up safely. All of that in an environment where we have little control, play second fiddle to the surgeon, put up with less than professional helpers, in a cold noisy operating room. Our patients are frequently non-compliant as far as maintaining their own health, underestimate what it is we do and complain if they have the slightest complication, such as a sore throat.

Despite all of that, we love our work, wouldn't do anything else, are happy that we left mainstream nursing and are very proud of our profession.

Also, basic economics plays a role in our income. Demand for anesthesia services is greater than ever and will continue as long as there are people who need surgery, have babies, drive motor vehicles, get old, have pain, etc. etc.

If you value anesthesia, there should be no discussion on the reimbursement for the service.

Yoga

mrdoc2005 · May 10, 2005

My two cents:

There is nothing wrong with saying I worked very hard, went to school (while my friends played and bragged about their new 30K car while I had a piece of crap) and now I am being rewarded because of all of this.

In short, no manner what you do there is nothing wrong in saying money played a factor in my choice. However, those that do things only for money will learn to hate what they do and in most cases quit.

Well, if the docs aren[t in it for the money why do I see posts on SDN that ask questions referring to how much money can be made in gas, which residencies are the easiest with the most money, how gas is better paid than some other specialties? In addition, I frequently hear physicians talking about their houses,cars, etc...sometimes CRNAs as well...but the comment ab out
$300,000 just solidivfied my opinions that many MDAs are in it for the money.

deepz · May 10, 2005

mrdoc2005 said:
......no manner what you do there is nothing wrong in saying money played a factor in my choice. ........

"If you're not a socialist at 20, you have no heart. If not a capitalist at 40, you have no head." --- Anonymous

!

Lambert5883 · May 10, 2005

deepz said:
"If you're not a socialist at 20, you have no heart. If not a capitalist at 40, you have no head." --- Anonymous
!

Why are we even talking about one's motivation behind pursuing a certain line of work. It's funny. The original OP is probably saying, "man those people are strange! All I wanted to know is what the difference is!"

Hey deepz, are you in Denver? Do you know Will Maclevane? Worked alot with Dr. Rothenburg in peds.

Laughing Gas · May 10, 2005

ramiro_ac said:
and md's donate 100k b/c obviously they arent in it for the money either... :chuckle

Not sure where you're going with this one.

ECMOismygame · May 10, 2005

.......

Laughing Gas · May 11, 2005

ramiro_ac said:
i was being sarcastic...just as that poster wrote that CRNA's should donate anything over 45K to a charity so should the docs...b/c everyones in this profession just for the work...MONEY is a factor, no matter what anybody says, shouldnt be the biggest factor but it is
for ex. when dating someone, we first the outside. thats what attracts us AT FIRST. (ahem money) then once you get deeper into knowing the person (THE WORK) then you see if you like them or not. there are some beautiful people out there (LOTS OF CASH) who are the ugliest on the inside (TERRIBLE WORK)...and vice versa....like um paramedics, teachers, NURSES, social workers, etc.

For whom is the biggest factor money? You seem to have given yourself the ability to assess motive that addresses thousands of professionals.

As for your dating/salary scenario, I am still not clear on your intention. Maybe it is your inconsistent use of punctuation and capital letters that makes understanding you difficult. Then I re-read your post a couple of times and have come to the realization that there is no discernable point.

You seem to be passionate, but I am not sure what you are passionate about. If you do have some insightful knowledge, please quit hiding it. Let us know how you have come to such a deep understanding of nursing, anesthesia and economics.

jewelcutt · May 11, 2005

This thread is getting really confusing. Here's a question, Why is it when everyone is comparing CRNA education they say we have only six years. Do we sit on our a** for 2-5 years in a busy intensive care unit, learning entirely nothing, making the same money as residents do? Oh, so our work as the most autonomous nurses in the hospital, saving lives often without docs around doesn't count for sh**! Like we sit around on nights for the brand new first year OB rotating resident to come to our rescue to help us save our patients and make our decisions for us. I respect all of the residents and doctors I've worked with, but I'm getting real tired of hearing people say we only go through 6 years because we all learn through both education and experience. Personally I have 3 yrs of a science degree, 4 yrs to a BSN, 3 yrs ICU, 2 1/2 yrs Anesthesia school, it doesn't quite add up to 6 yrs. You will also find that most students in anesthesia school have far more than 1-2 years of ICU experience and they often take additional science courses on the side to get into school. For god sakes, give us some credit. And to all of you non-nurses out there, shut up with your menial comments about nursing. You have no idea how hard of a job it is with little respect given and very little compensation. Nurses are with patients ALL THE TIME, nobody cares for their patients as much as nurses do. You should all be so lucky to have a nurse take care of you. These statements aren't meant for everyone, just those that spout opinions without any background knowledge or base their opinions on one-time experiences. Going to bed now, sorry :sleep: