I remembered reading an old post awhile ago where an NP (who got her DNP) was told by Human Resources that she couldn't use the title "Doctor" at the hospital, because it would mislead the patients.
I am wondering if anyone has seen or heard anything similar where they work (you personally or someone else).
If hospitals are "all about introductions", I see nothing wrong with telling a patient, "Hi, I'm Dr. Smith, I'm a Nurse Practioner"...I see no difference between that and saying, "Hi, I'm Dr. Jones and I'm your Cardiologist".
To me, that would be a HUGE slap in the fact to someone who has worked hard for that degree, because they are entitled to use that title.
Actually, LVNs and RNs do "own" the term nurses in that CNAs and MAs are not licensed by a governing body and can't legally practice nursing.
DNPs earn degrees and pass boards that give them the authority to call themselves doctors and to practice as doctors of a particular field, just as a DDS is licensed to practice denistry or a DVM is licensed to practice veterinary medicine. Medical doctors don't "own" the term doctor, although sometimes they act as if they do.
psychiatrists generally don't do a physical assessment but a mental health evaluation, because you are fixing the mind, not so much the body.
psychiatrists' inpatients are required to have a h&p the same as any patient, it is done by the hospitalist or the patients pcp if available.
fixing the mind does work to fix the body. there is a mind-body connection and it works both ways. a sick body can likewise sicken the mind.
i work with radiologists and they know "zip" about medications. i've had them tell me "if we had a code i'd probably pee in my pants" or "a code is my worst fear". are they good radiologists, yes! exceptional! every has their place. the trick is to not over-step it. my dh was at the oncologist and saw a np, when she left the room he said "thank you dr", she turned and said "no i'm a nurse, a nurse practitioner, but you're quite welcome". that's practicing responsibily imho
Where did you get that information from? I've been in psych (nursing) my entire career and have many close friends who are clinical psychologists (with PhDs) and their programs didn't include a single word about "anatomy" or pharmacology -- they don't know the difference between ASA and Tylenol!! .
Ok...in all due respect, this sounds a little like an exaggeration to me.
I also NEVER referred to what a Psychiatrist does AT ALL when they admit a patient to the hospital....that is NOT the topic we are discussing.
My husband is an occupational psychologist and his father is a clinical psychologist.
All clinical psychologists have PhD...you are not a clinical psychologist unless you have one. That is totally different from an MS in other field of Psychology.
That's how I know.
The drug aspect of their education is not taught in a separate Pharmacology course, but worked in with Abnormal Psychology. Many of them take an entire course of substance abuse as well as part of their studies, because it has a major impact upon our society...so they cover all of the drugs that can be abused.
They also have to have first-hand knowledge of how psych meds work...b/c very RARELY will you see a Psychiatrist do therapy....it's usually the Clinical Psychologist or other Licensed Counselor. The CP has to be aware of how these drugs affect the body, which in turn, affects behavior...they have to know the differences between....are they seeing manifestations of new behavior or are they side effects of the medication prescribed by the Psychiatrist or other MD.
Anatomy and Physiology was REQUIRED in my husband's curriculum as a pre-requisite for his Masters, but not for his undergrad for his BS in Psychology.
I'm well aware of the credentials of a Psychiatrist. They are an MD who has completed a residency in Psychiatry.
I would also wager that the Rx authority given to clinical psychologists was probably limited to a set group of drugs. I have a friend that is an Optometrist. She has Rx authority, but her authority cannot go outside of her scope of practice. She can prescribe antibiotics for an eye infection but she can't write a prescription for birth control pills, because she isn't a general practice physician.
If DNP's want to go around introducing themselves as "doctor" to boost their ego, let them. It doesn't change anything otherwise. A DNP will function the same as an NP except the DNP goes around thinking that they are a doctor now. It seems like a waste of two additional years of my life.
Yes... and the reason they go around thinking that they are a doctor now is because they are. The term doctor refers to anyone who has completed a doctoral field of study in a particular area and who has passed the appropriate credentialing exams to practice as such. Why wouldn't you "think" you were a doctor if you successfully fulfilled those requirements?
I'm beginning to understand why some M.D.s have such a God complex. Apparently, it isn't just the patients who feed that mentality...
Specializes in ACNP-BC, Adult Critical Care, Cardiology.
A nurse practitioner's clinical advice does not carry the same weight as a physician's.
Wow, that is pretty presumptious of you to say that. What kind of background do you have that you seem to be so knowledgeable and authoritative about this issue?
I think you underestimate how a hospitalized patient's mind works. There are so many hospital staff that come through the patient's door but I bet you the patient and his family would still know who the attending physician is, who the resident is, who the NP is, who the PA is, and who the medical student is regardless of what title these people who wear white lab coats use. The person utlimately responsible for medical care (the attending physician) gets to talk extensively on rounds and the rest gets to present their findings. Wouldn't that be clear to patients who the rest of the white coat staff answer to?
The last thing NP's want to do is to misrepresent ourselves as physicians. We can be held liable for that and I'm sure every single NP out there do not want to put their license in jeopardy over something so stupid. I have been referred to as doctor many times when I see patients. I always make it a point to correct them and say I am nurse practitioner and not a physician so I must not be addressed as a doctor. If I have a PhD or a DNP, I may choose to be addressed as doctor but I would still make it clear to patients that I am not a physician at each encounter.
Yep, I'm a first year med student. I'm going to have to stand by my position when I say that a nurse practitioner's clinical advice does not carry the same weight as an attending physicians. I say this not only as a med student, but as the family member of loved ones who have been through some serious illnesses and as a healthcare worker who has worked with PA's and NPs. Sorry if it hurts some egos, but it's true. You can't compare a physician's training with a nurse practitioner's-- the physician has far more rigorous training. As for all these studies that show that NP's provide equal or superior care vs. physicians, those studies have also been showed to be pretty flawed. If I recall correctly, the P value was enormous, the follow-up was for a very brief time, and the physicians they compared the NP's against were residents.
As for patients and their families being confused by the roles of the staff in the hospital-- I don't see how you guys don't get how this is a problem. God, I'm a med student and there are times where I have a hard time spotting the doctors from the nurses from the NP's from the techs. It can be hard when you have all these different people coming in, they're all wearing white coats, with stethoscopes in their pockets. Add to that nurses calling themselves doctors. But wait, "I'm a nurse too."
I have to hand it to Mary Mundinger and her crowd, though. Mid-levels have managed to break through into the world of medicine-- you are now able to practice the field of medicine independently in six years (you could probably do most of your education via the net too!), and be called "doctor" in the end, setting up your own practice with a watered down education. Bravo.
Mid-levels have managed to break through into the world of medicine-- you are now able to practice the field of medicine independently in six years (you could probably do most of your education via the net too!), and be called "doctor" in the end, setting up your own practice with a watered down education. Bravo.
Shows how much you understand the process. :chuckle
Do DNP's have the right to call themselves "doctor?" Sure. But not in a clinical setting. It is is deceptive to the patient not to mention confusing. A nurse practitioner's clinical advice does not carry the same weight as a physician's. As much as you would like to think that it is not going to confuse the patients, it is.
Even though you are probaby going to be lynched for saying it, to a large extent, I agree.
Specializes in ACNP-BC, Adult Critical Care, Cardiology.
"as for patients and their families being confused by the roles of the staff in the hospital-- i don't see how you guys don't get how this is a problem. god, i'm a med student and there are times where i have a hard time spotting the doctors from the nurses from the np's from the techs. it can be hard when you have all these different people coming in, they're all wearing white coats, with stethoscopes in their pockets. add to that nurses calling themselves doctors. but wait, "i'm a nurse too."
check the title on the name tags dude, or better yet, ask them what they do, they'll be glad to tell you.
"you can't compare a physician's training with a nurse practitioner's-- the physician has far more rigorous training. as for all these studies that show that np's provide equal or superior care vs. physicians, those studies have also been showed to be pretty flawed. if i recall correctly, the p value was enormous, the follow-up was for a very brief time, and the physicians they compared the np's against were residents."
you are very right! np training is not as rigorous as those of physicians'. but the problem i have with your blanket statement is the same problem you have with the studies that showed that np care is just as good as physicians'. for example, in my role as an np in cardiothoracic surgery icu for over 2 years now, you can not tell me that a second year surgical resident who happens to be a physician who went to med school but fresh out of internship will know more about how to care for fresh open hearts than me? i think not and the resident don't think so either. i am not claiming to be as good as a physician. heck, i only know about heart stuff, really. but the problem with making a blanket statement like you did is that you don't account for individual variances. so that's why i questioned your statement. anyways, peace and good luck.
And what type of training does a med student get? Four years after the BS degree, correct? And what is the minimum training for a generic NP? Two miore years and for the MSN, and then another two years for the DNP. So eight years of training, and that does not include all of the work experience that the RN has had.
Sorry, but you came to a nursing bulletin board to start a fight and nothing more than that.
And then since you are so concerned with how an NP that holds a clinical doctorate introduces themselves to their patients, how about how you do that when you do not even start your clinicals until as a third year student in many programs. Not sure what your experience has been, but is has not been in the clinical role as a first year med student.
Medicine and nursing are completely different professions, and they benefit each other; but they are definitely not the same. You are going to be in for a very rude awakening if this is how you are starting your training.
I actually feel sorry for you. And I sincerely mean it. When newbies have behavior or sentiment as you do, they find it very difficult to get thru an internship, let alone a residency. Instead of coming here to try and put down nurses, a field that you know nothing of; focus on what you can do so that you can actually learn from one.
for a nurse to be using the title "doctor" in a clinical setting is inappropriate... period.
if a nurse has obtained a doctors degree whether it be in nursing, nursing management or as a dnp, that nurse has every right to use that title in a clinical setting, as does a pt, an rd, etc... misrepresenting themselves as a medical doctor is what would be inappropriate. i personally have yet to see that happen.
a nurse practitioner's clinical advice does not carry the same weight as a physician's.
my np's advice is just as important to me as that of my physician. she has diagnosed me correctly more often than her boss the doctor.
doctors don't corner the market on brains just because they went to school longer. i can't tell you the number of times that this one lowly little nurse has saved the doctors gluteus maximus and the doctors i work with know that nurses routinely look out for them and they respect us as colleagues.
DutchgirlRN, ASN, RN
3,932 Posts
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