Crossing the line of professionalism

Erinkate2959 · Jan 30, 2003

I am a nursing student who frequently visits this website to get seasoned and experienced nurses opinions and points of view on specific topics. After reading this thread, I think I will stick to the student forum. Some people here seem to be perpetuating every negative stereotype of the nursing profession. As for students not going to the library, I would be more inclined to think that they are attending poor educational institutions rather than generalize that all nursing students are asking you to do their homework for them. Obviously some people have forgotten what it is like to be a student. I think attitudes like these are what drive students away in herds from choosing nursing as a profession.

Enright · Jan 30, 2003

I'd like to add another perspective....I am a government employee (RN) in a state agency. My phone rings all day long with high school and college students essentially wanting me to do their research for them on a wide range of topics (having nothing to do with my role with the agency). I am amazed at how little prep they do before they call or drop me an e-mail....and they have extremely exacting expectations (I want 1500 words from you, I need it by tomorrow, etc.).

On a related topic, because I have an unusual job, I often speak to nursing school classes about my job. It is an interesting job and has great hours, weekends and holidays off, etc. I get a million requests for "how can I get a job like that?" ...I explain the process for state employment, that it is competitive, but that I'll walk anyone who is interested through it and help in any way I can. Of the 30 or 40 people who have shown enough interest to follow up, not one can get beyond the fact that a panel interview is required...they all say the same thing "hey, I'm a nurse, they should be lucky to get me!".

I agree with fab4fan and llg and smilingblueyes, if people are upfront, then you can respond or not, as you wish.

SmilingBluEyes · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by Erinkate2959
I am a nursing student who frequently visits this website to get seasoned and experienced nurses opinions and points of view on specific topics. After reading this thread, I think I will stick to the student forum. Some people here seem to be perpetuating every negative stereotype of the nursing profession. As for students not going to the library, I would be more inclined to think that they are attending poor educational institutions rather than generalize that all nursing students are asking you to do their homework for them. Obviously some people have forgotten what it is like to be a student. I think attitudes like these are what drive students away in herds from choosing nursing as a profession.

Noooooope have not forgotten ----it was 1997. You miss the point of what I have said here, as I can see clearly. See, way back in the dark ages (1990s), I had NO internet use whatever at school and no forums like this one to access from home......I just did it to ole fashioned way......spending HOURS in the library pouring thru microfiche and old journals/books. When interviewing or seeking info from experienced nurses, they always knew exactly my purpose and what I was after. Anyhow, I have said it before; I have no problem helping students when they have done some of the leg work themselves and are able to tie it together w/our help. NO problem whatever. I wish you and all students good luck. But remember, time comes soon enough when you have to think for yourselves. Some are waiting to watch you fall...I will be there to help if you only ask.

llg, PhD, RN · Jan 30, 2003

I guess I should re-state my position, too, as others have done. Like the other experienced nurses in this thread, I have no objections to helping students. However, I do think we have a right to know when our responses are being recorded and reported in a class paper. If my responses are to be included in a write-up of a survey, then my consent should be obtained -- that's a basic right of any research subject.

As for students asking me for help with their papers ... Again, I don't mind helping a student who has made a legitimate effort and gotten stuck. I just hate to be abused by students who think I am there to do their basic school work for them. There is a difference.

It's a shame that some students (perhaps like Erinkate2959?) can't see the difference. That "eat their young" phrase is waayyy overused -- sometimes used as an acusation any time someone younger doesn't get what they want the easy way. Asking that students state that our responses are being used for a paper is not "eating our young." It is asking that they live up to their obligation to be honest and up-front about their intended use of our efforts. Requiring that students put forth a little effort before they give up the search and just ask us is requiring that they learn to use the literature and think for themselves, thus learning what they need to learn to be good nurses. It is maintaining high standards that we should be proud of, not feel guilty about.

llg

litepath · Jan 30, 2003

Nursing students and nurses alike are nothing more than a crossection of society from a human standpoint.

When I first read her post, I thought it was a bit vague and worded a bit strangely. Now i know why. Personally, i think she came to the right place to get real-time reality answers to her inquiry. Some things you cannot glean from books or educators that have been out of the loop for a while doing their thing at the edu level.

I can understand those of you that are a wee bit put off by this student. But I think you're focus could be redirected to realize what a great resource you are and this site is. I have been reading this site for awhile, I'm due to grad this may. Many times these posts have led me to do more research elsewhere and sometimes I have to admit to leaving this site feeling sad at the negative tones some of us cast.

It helps when i remember my beliefs. That we are part of the whole. That each of you represent a part of me. The negative that I hear/read is just a part of what lies inside as well as the wonderful expressions of love and caring.

~~just my thoughts~~

fab4fan · Jan 30, 2003

Personally, if a student is too lazy to do the initial footwork for a project and expects that experienced nurses should just "give it up" for them...I'm sorry, but I'd rather that person not go into nursing. We need people that can work and think independently. I don't mind holding somone's hand at first, but eventually that person needs to stand on his or her own two feet.

I agree that the expression, "eat our young" has been overused to the point of being hackneyed. Expecting for a nurse to think for himself/herself is not unrealistic. If a prospective nurse doesn't learn how to think critically and independently, he/she will fail, if not in school then in the work situation. However, failure in our work situation, unlike many others, means that lives are put in jeopardy. Do you really want to work with someone like that, for someone with that attitude to be backing you up...even worse, how about being in charge with someone like that?

I doubt that the RN's here have forgotten what it was like to be a student...I graduated in '85, and I remember my student days very clearly. Never did it occur to me that RN's had some obligation to help me with my work...if there were some willing to help, great, but I never had this feeling of entitlement that seems so prevalent today.The things that I remember most are the things I had to really work for to learn. The feeling of accomplishment you get from doing well after putting forth the effort is priceless.

llg, PhD, RN · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by fab4fan
Never did it occur to me that RN's had some obligation to help me with my work...if there were some willing to help, great, but I never had this feeling of entitlement that seems so prevalent today.The things that I remember most are the things I had to really work for to learn. The feeling of accomplishment you get from doing well after putting forth the effort is priceless.

Well said. It's that "feeling of entitlement" that bothers me, too. I believe that the priviledge of being entrusted with the care and well-being of others is something that should be earned, not given. As a student, I wanted to DESERVE to be a nurse -- and understood that I would have to prove myself many times to many people before I would be accepted as being worthy of that trust. I see that in some students today, but not it others.

As for the particular student who started this thread, I bear her no ill-will. I think she was just was naive and did not mean any harm.

llg

emily_mom · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by SmilingBluEyes
Ok this is gonna come off bytchy, but I have to say it. My opinion is, if you are looking for information for a class or school project, you should tell us up front. I am not here to participate in research projects/polls for students (or anyone) w/o my knowledge. My answer would not have been different, but, I felt a bit *mislead* here. Have you had your ethics classes yet? Just wondering Anyhow, I only speak for myself here when I say all this..

I was gonna say the same thing....don't jerk our chains..... :rolleyes:

ageless · Jan 31, 2003

The posters question was indeed appropriate. She was asking for opinions from nurses in the trenches. The answer to her question was not in the library. She was doing her assignment all by herself as her instructior suggested. Geez, Its not like she asked one of you to poll your co-workers for her.

What's the big deal? I thought this was a place to exchange information.... either answer a poster's question or choose not to answer.

NurseGirlKaren · Jan 31, 2003

Methinks I dare not chime in here....

SmilingBluEyes · Jan 31, 2003

ageless, if you bothered to read the posts you would know the question was not the problem. but i digress.......this thread should be so over by now, huh?

Agnus · Jan 31, 2003

I am sorry and your are right I was harsh.

I can see your point a little better. I have not had the experience some of you apparently have had.

I was taught to use every resource available to me including my fellow humanbeing. Just as a matter of course I identified when I was asking a question from a school assignment. It seemed natual and automatic for me to do this. I also cited the nurse in my papers if the information came from her.

I guess that I am assuming a lot here. I agree students need to be taught how to do reasearch and how to present it and draw conclusions of their own from it. (i. e. critical thinking)

Maybe I am naieve because my experience with students has been different from yours. I have been thinking that a student who tries to get others to do thier work all the time, won't actually make it to the boards, because they don't have the knowledge and skill in using it that they need. I guess this is not accruate thinking on my part.

I love helping students and I know that many of those I help don't actually make it. No I don't want to do anyones homework any more than you do. But I will take a student by the hand and give them some indebth insight into a situation that presensts itself. So that they can learn out side the text book. Because as we know too well most of what we experience is never in a book.

I think the above question was one of those. She asked an opinion and asked how we handle it. That is more in the catagory of " What do you actually do in real life about a situation like this?"

I challenged students with questions.

I think we are smart enough to weed out the, give me book facts type questions. And If we slip and find we have done someone's assignment then so be it. We learn and move on.

Occasionally we as RNs and LPNs will ask book fact questions here. It is not in every case realistic to expect them to go get a book. That can be expensive and or time consuming.

That is why I don't have a problem with this. Like I said, if I don't want to answer I don't.