CRNA vs Physician Salaries

Home Health Columnist / Guide · Mar 29, 2007

Little misleading there pain-doc.

'58% of CRNA's are non-advanced degreed nurses"....HOWEVER they attended nurse anesthesia programs when they were advanced training certificate programs and have been practicing anesthesia for the last 20-50 years.

Educational advances of the last 20 years moved to strengthen educational programs to graduate degree level across all advanced practice settings in the nursing profession.

Healthcare professions advancing their educational levels also include Pharmacists (Doctor of Pharmacy degree), Physical Therapists (Doctorate degree by 2020) and Speech Therapists (MS degree).

I remember a time doctors only completed internship, not residency which was for specialized practice.

Times change. Nursing advanced practice has advanced educational standards along with other healthcare practitioners.

To your prior premise you can train an individual RN to administer anesthesia in a month........might be one or two agents to relatively healthy individuals. CRNA's are educated to administer a variety of agents, differing modalities, to infants and those in their 90's, in controlled settings and in trauma code situations.

Maybe it's time to move your disdain for this profession to another bb.

deepz · Mar 29, 2007

Yeah!

paindoc · Mar 29, 2007

It is futile to argue with facts. CRNA salaries have bloated to the point they should indeed become the focus of not only hospital administrators and anesthesiologists, but also the MDs that work twice as many hours per week as CRNAs, have substantially more education, and assume far more liability risk all for the same salary as a CRNA.

Another little nasty fact is that there are many CRNAs practicing that have less than a BS RN, in fact have no 4 year college degree at all. They come from the 2 year or 3 year RN programs, some of which were hospital schools rather than colleges. In 1992 the predominate degree achieved by nurses matriculating into the CRNA programs was a 2 year RN, period. Many of these CRNAs continue to practice today and are paid the same as a MS + BSRN. Furthermore they are paid the same as a MD primary care physician that had requirements of 4 years college, 4 years medical school, and 3 years residency in 1992.

You are correct in assuming this message needs to be disseminated to other bulletin boards and I plan on doing exactly that, beginning with the primary care bbs and working my way up through hospital administrator bbs.

Just the facts...just the facts....

urgewrx · Mar 29, 2007

Thanks paindoc for providing hardcore evidence on a statement I made on another thread. These inflated salaries are totally ridiculous for the level of training. As soon as Medicare and other private insurers adjust the payscale for nurse anesthesia, the party is over. And it WILL HAPPEN

HairCanada · Mar 29, 2007

Firstly, your figures are a little bogus, ..come on you got them from some website, if you were actually a "Doctor" ..you would laugh at that type of research method.

Secondly ..what is your point?...Are you trying to communicate that highly educated and trained cross discipline medical professionals are compensated extremely well?......wow very astute!!!

Maybe your next post will be about your revolutionary idea that there is some invisible force pulling things downward!!...please keep us posted...

FlGasman · Mar 29, 2007

And those doc salries conflict SIGNIFICANTLY with the Bearau of labor as well as salary .com low balling doc salaries by 30-50%. But people forget what goes into CRNA training today

4 years under grad-

2 years ICU-

2.5 years school (and not the same as NP school, you cant work in anesthesia school)

so just slightly less then MD

FlGasman · Mar 29, 2007

just out curiosity, are you a pian doc? paindoc? Is there a complaint about our salaries? Are they too high? Why does an interventional radiologist make 400PLUS K a year? Why do anesthesiologiusts and pain docs make more then several residencies that are 2-3 years longer then theirs who have worse hours? WHy do attorney who have 7 total years of education make more then all of us (in some cases) What is the issue specifically with CRNA salaries?

skipaway · Mar 29, 2007

I'm just not sure why how much a CRNA makes bothers you so much, Paindoc. Athletes, who, may have no degree whatsoever, are multi-millionaires as are entertainers. Do you begrudge them their living like you do CRNAs? Would it make you feel better if people who are not formally educated always make less then the almight MD? What about entreprenurs who do not hold a degree, but by sheer work ethic and smarts becomes a high earner? Do you feel that they don't deserve a good living too? I just think it's nobodies concern how much I get paid and I don't understand how paying CRNAs less would make you happier.

ali anesthesia · Mar 29, 2007

The real question is: what is the value of administering anesthesia. The ASA has established that years ago with their relative value guide. It seems like the value of administering anesthesia is higher than treating runny noses and type 2 diabetes. Make of it what you want, but it is the reality.

I know many physicians who wish they had gone the CRNA route. One of the surgeons I work with insisted his son become a CRNA instead of going to medical school.

Ali A

TexasGas · Mar 31, 2007

paindoc,

You conveniently left off anesthesiologists' pay. I assume that you feel that the surgeon should be paid more than the gas man in all instances, right?

You are barking up the wrong tree. The CERTIFIED and TRAINED anesthesia provider is in dire times of a massive shortage of workers. It is no different that the pay scale is skewed to need. A premise of supply and demand. Many CRNA programs have upped enrollment and improved distance learning options to facilitate filling these voids, as it will only get worse. It gets worse r/t baby boomers and roughly 30-35% of current CRNAs admit they plan on retiring by year 2015.

If you really want to put "disturbing and unfair" pay inequalities on this board, lets talk bad about the drug reps. I was one for 7 years. With a lowly BS in Zoology, I managed to out earn many of the posted averages you listed. I was actually in healthcare, earning more than some docs, and just had a lowly undergrad degree. I say lowly BS degree since you only award those you deem suitable to accept pay on a scale. In other words, you don't think that if someone went through exactly the steps to become a professional that you prefer, they do not merit higher than average pay or recognition that their education may actually be unsurpassed in exactly the scope of practice of which those people engage. You tend to place a great deal of value in what the degree level is and NOT what education it actually represents. How does it feel to waste so much of your time trying to make us feel bad for wanting to have a great career, where we care effectively and safely for patients and are also rewarded? You should take up golf. Most docs are pretty good at that, i know, I used to pay for it.

GregRN · Mar 31, 2007

What a poor, poor site. Those figures are far off. Most compensation analysts will start with salary.com because of their methodologies and data collection and pick it apart from there. I have many friends who are doctors and they make nowehere near that amount. Those figures are very, very low. But, as we all know, if you want to make a point, we can find whatever info we need to support it. Tail wagging the dog.

Speaking of, despite the poor information, what is your point paindoc?

http://www.merritthawkins.com/pdf/2005_Modern_Healthcare_Physician_Compensation_Review.pdf

The above site is from a variety of sources, by the way, not just one. Further, it's from 2005, and even one of average intelligence would expect the salaries to be much higher than quoted here. I spent 9 years in staffing and recruiting, including placing MD's in a variety of jobs, from permanent to locum tenens. How embarrassing it would be had I called MD's for positions and quoted salaries you listed?

Should your salary be higher than those listed here, I would guess you, as well, are overpaid. Thank your lucky stars.