CRNA vs Physician Salaries

GregRN · Apr 1, 2007

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GregRN · Apr 1, 2007

With all that training and education, you would think the morbidity and mortality rates of MD's vs. CRNA's would be significantly lower. But they're the same, and that, frankly, should be embarrassing, if one is going to place as much value on education. Hospital administrators, paindoc, are well aware of this, as well as MDA attendings. I would guess it's less than 5% of you anesthesiologists who continue this game. The rest see the value in CRNA's providing the same level of anesthesia services for less money. But, when you get to the politicians with this info, they will ask what the difference is in morbidity and mortality rates amongst MD's vs. CRNA's, because it's the results that matter, not spin. And, be sure you share with them your salaries quoted here. I'm sure they'd see much more money to be saved in getting other MD's in line with those salaries, vs. just the anesthesia arena.

Until you can show me that your far superior training results in far superior results, you and your organization's words are just rhetoric and saber rattling. Just the facts, just the facts.

GregRN · Apr 1, 2007

Thanks paindoc for providing hardcore evidence on a statement I made on another thread. These inflated salaries are totally ridiculous for the level of training. As soon as Medicare and other private insurers adjust the payscale for nurse anesthesia, the party is over. And it WILL HAPPEN

Level of training...level of training...level of training. Is that all you have to offer? Show me results. Show me that an MDA's level of training directly correlates to an increased level of results in delivering anesthesia and decreasing morbidity and mortality rates. Seriously, show me.

deepz · Apr 1, 2007

If all-physician-provider anesthesia was so great, stats would show that the countries of ye olde British Empire, with only docs passing gas, to be clearly safer and otherwise superior to our stats in the USA. No such proof exists, nor will it ever.

QED

gasmaster · Apr 2, 2007

Looking at paindocs salary quotes seems a bit surreal. Here in Texas the docs are making a lot higher than those quoted. I have a dear friend who is an MDA and is making over $400,000 per year at a local hospital. I also have another dear friend who is a plastic surgeon and he's making over $600,000 per year. And I also have another very, very close family relation who is a hospitalist who is making over $200,000 per year. Now, with CRNA salaries in this area averaging $120,000-160,000, how is it that we are so close in range to these docs? Please tell me again, because I am missing something here. Does anyone notice that the nay sayers on this site, paindoc and urgewrx, seem to be physicians who don't really care for CRNA's? I have read some of their comments on physician websites that are really disturbing, very negative, and downright malicious. As this is a CRNA website I would think that they could at least show a bit of respect while visiting here, as we would if we visitied their forums, don't ya'll agree?

platon20 · Apr 3, 2007

With all that training and education, you would think the morbidity and mortality rates of MD's vs. CRNA's would be significantly lower. But they're the same, and that, frankly, should be embarrassing, if one is going to place as much value on education. Hospital administrators, paindoc, are well aware of this, as well as MDA attendings. I would guess it's less than 5% of you anesthesiologists who continue this game. The rest see the value in CRNA's providing the same level of anesthesia services for less money. But, when you get to the politicians with this info, they will ask what the difference is in morbidity and mortality rates amongst MD's vs. CRNA's, because it's the results that matter, not spin. And, be sure you share with them your salaries quoted here. I'm sure they'd see much more money to be saved in getting other MD's in line with those salaries, vs. just the anesthesia arena.
Until you can show me that your far superior training results in far superior results, you and your organization's words are just rhetoric and saber rattling. Just the facts, just the facts.

Thats funny I was going to say the EXACT SAME THING about the hostile CRNA attitudes towards AAs.

Lets not pretend the AANA has clean hands here. They are just as dirty and hypocritical as the ASA/MDAs.

TexasGas · Apr 3, 2007

Thats funny I was going to say the EXACT SAME THING about the hostile CRNA attitudes towards AAs.
Lets not pretend the AANA has clean hands here. They are just as dirty and hypocritical as the ASA/MDAs.

But saying the EXACT same thing doesn't hold true. Not at all. The mortality/morbidity rates are compared between all cases of anesthesia, SPECIFICALLY including settings where the CRNA has absolutely NO supervision. An AA cannot have that information, since that venue doesn't exist.

AAs are not allowed to perform anesthesia without direction form a physician. CRNAs can. AAs cannot be directly reimbursed from medicare, CRNAs can.

CRNAs are independent providers of anesthesia, AAs are not. There is not an Apples/Apples comparison of of safety between these two professions.

deepz · Apr 3, 2007

....Lets not pretend the AANA has clean hands here. They are just as dirty and hypocritical as the ASA/MDAs.

Baloney. If you didn't have such a transparent agenda, you might have noticed that AANA tactics have evolved in response to unrelenting ATTACKS by the A$A on CRNAs' competence, safety and independence. Of course we defend ourselves. We aren't trying to eliminate anyone's job, they are. Over and over and over. And AAs are an integral part of their attacks.

.

zrmorgan · Apr 3, 2007

crna sample from gaswork....crna-far north suburban il illinois full time superior medical services, ltd. $120,000 $140,000 w-2

$15k sign-on bonus! illinois chicago/ north suburban full time superior medical services, ltd. $110,000 $160,000 w-2

illinois effingham full time amsol anesthetists of illinois $150,001 - $160,000 $160,001 - $170,000 w-2

great opportunity for new grads! illinois southern full time (nas) national anesthesia services, inc. $150,000 $190,000 w-2 1, 2007

chicago area- b &b cases illinois chicago area full time medical associates consulting $120,000 w-2

http://www.gaswork.com/cgi-bin/ipbltsrch.exe?forumid=job4crna

mda sample from gaswork...

excellent solo practice opportunity illinois litchfield full time amsol of litchfield $300,000 $400,000 w-2

pediatric anesthesiologist-chicago illinois full time superior medical services, ltd. $320,000 $400,000 w-2

mda for n. il practice group illinois full time superior medical services, ltd. $240,000 $270,000 w-2

chicago- bread & butter, ambulatory mda! illinois chicago full time superior medical services, ltd. $190,000 $250,000 w-2

http://www.gaswork.com/cgi-bin/ipbltsrch.exe?forumid=job4md

dude, we should both agree that everyone in anesthesia should be well compensated compared to other specialties...if you are not on your toes and ready to act within 15 seconds you could have a very profound complication. ask airline pilots if they think they are asking too much compared to truck drivers?

bottom line paindoc is if anyone is too expensive in anesthesia it is you...sorry, lower your prices, then we will talk about who gets the job...dont be a hippocrate.

luhowRN · Apr 3, 2007

Here are a couple of links to a physician and non-physician provider survey that hospitals/groups use to determine salaries for MDA's and CRNA's (along with most other specialties) - this seems a little more realistic with what I am familiar with...

http://www.cejkasearch.com/compensation/amga_physician_compensation_survey.htm

http://www.cejkasearch.com/compensation/amga_midlevel_compensation_survey.htm

paindoc · Apr 4, 2007

Although I am baffled by the term hippocrate (a large box for hippos?), I actually agree with you. I make less than the usual pain physician because I use standardized selection criteria for procedures rather than blindly performing the technical feature of injections as requested by surgeons, drive an hour each way to see patients in a clinic that until a few years ago came to me (its that greenhouse gas thingy with all those cars spewing forth their toxins), and perform my procedures in an office where total reimbursement is less than half of that in an ASC or hospital. I administer general anesthesia for free (how many CRNAs would routinely do that?). But overall, as with the excellent surveys by the poster above, you can see 1. inequity in physician's salaries and 2. the overall impact of specialists on the health care system.

platon20 · Apr 4, 2007

you might have noticed that AANA tactics have evolved in response to unrelenting ATTACKS by the A$A on CRNAs' competence, safety and independence. Of course we defend ourselves. We aren't trying to eliminate anyone's job, they are. Over and over and over. And AAs are an integral part of their attacks.

Thats absolute garbage. AAs have absolutely nothing to do with CRNAs independence or professional role. You are fighting AAs because of one thing: greed because you dont want more competition in the market place. Thats EXACTLY why the MDAs fight against CRNAs, therefore you both got dirty faces.

Please tell me how AAs being licensed in Texas and other states is a threat to the job role that CRNAs have. The only reason people opposed them on this forum is because they are scared that AAs are going to take jobs away from CRNAs.

Like I said, I was behind you guys when you were fighting against the ASA when they would try to limit your independence, scripting ability, etc. But now that the AANA's true colors come out, I have to call it as it is: absolute hypocritical greed.

The AANA is EXACTLY like the ASA.