Columbia University-ETP

btlejoos · Mar 4, 2009

to add to the BSN debate - at a columbia info session i attended, we were told that new york requires a BSN in order to enter an MSN program, so that's why they offer it. i don't think it necessarily says much about programs overall, whether they offer it or not, and i doubt future employers will care either way.

CharmedJ7 · Mar 4, 2009

Charmed - MOST of the programs i've looked at do not offer a second bachelors - they are considered an entirely graduate program with the goal to be NPs, not RNs. Therefore, I don't think it matters much whether you get the BSN or not, because you will have the MSN and that is what obviously matters. Most programs seem to offer conditional RN licenses contingent upon completing the program, to discourage people from "fast tracking" to BSN and then leaving.
MSN hopeful - my friend went to MGH, loved it, and had no trouble finding work. I really wouldn't let that BSN vs. No BSN be a big factor in your decision. A bonus to NOT getting the BSN is you are considered a graduate student for the entire program, and therefore can just take out GradPlus loans, which are easier to get and have a fixed vs. variable rate. Good luck!

I don't think we're disagreeing here, I fully realize most programs do not offer a BSN - my point is simply that there is an advantage to programs that do in terms of flexibility, but as others have pointed out, there are loan advantages to no BSN and it makes sense for schools to not offer it since it ensures students stay in the whole way through. Once you get the MSN, in the states, I don't think it would matter that you don't have a BSN, the flexibility question only comes into play if you may need to stop earlier or want to leave the states. Hence, if neither of the previous conditions applies to you, I wouldn't worry about the BSN/no BSN question.

freyalisa · Mar 4, 2009

I'm just saying i don't think you need to question the quality of a program dependent on whether they offer a BSN prior to the MSN. That's all! Otherwise there is no disagreement.

aspiring.midwife · Mar 4, 2009

Charmed, (and anyone else who may have info on this)

Do you have any more information on a BSN (in addition to an MSN) being required for international work? I had not heard this before, and am very interested in working as a CNM internationally. I know some of the schools I've applied to do not offer the 2nd BSN, just the MSN. I do not want that to keep me from working abroad. Can you share articles/websites/other places where you found your info?

Thanks so much!

freyalisa · Mar 4, 2009

aspiring.midwife- I would assume since you are getting an MSN, that it would not matter whether you had the BSN, the BSN is probably required if you did not finish and get the MSN. Of course, if anyone knows otherwise, feel free to correct me. I am just working on logic here!

aspiring.midwife · Mar 4, 2009

freyalisa,

Yeah, that is what I had assumed too, which is why I wanted to get clarification on Charmed's post. It would definitely make a big difference if that's not the case!

Thanks.

CharmedJ7 · Mar 4, 2009

freyalisa,
Yeah, that is what I had assumed too, which is why I wanted to get clarification on Charmed's post. It would definitely make a big difference if that's not the case!
Thanks.

I agree with you that it makes a difference whether or not it's the case, but I can't say for absolute sure. What I'm basing my assumption on is that, from trolling the international forum, it seems that direct entry programs have problems overseas since they aren't comparable to what is found there. Too, the countries I was specifically looking at (Canada and Australia) both require eligibility for nursing before registration as an NP and a few countries require a certain number of hours as an RN (NZ, for example, requires about 4500 if I'm remembering correctly, and Canadian NP schools require 2-3 years RN experience). Based on this information, it seems highly likely that acceptability would depend on comparability, in which case the RN portion being complete is important. That said, midwifery I think is a bit different, I *believe* in Australia and NZ labor and delivery nurses are often/always midwives, but check on that because it's not my field so I didn't pay too close attention.

I can link to some immigration sites later. If someone knows for sure the other way, please share, if I'm worrying for nothing it would be great to know!

freyalisa · Mar 4, 2009

Thanks for the clarification - you have done your research :)

aspiring.midwife · Mar 4, 2009

Thanks, Charmed! That's helpful. I'll check out the international forum as well.

CharmedJ7 · Mar 5, 2009

I really wish I could get definitive information, I've tried contacting the nursing boards in Canada and Australia but they haven't been too responsive or all that helpful. The main moderator on the international boards, Suzanne, says that accelerated programs do not meet requirements for registration or immigration but I can't find anything to back that up. Taken from the Canadian site, to meet RN requirements you must "Complete a nursing education program deemed equivalent to a CRNBC-recognized program at the time of assessment for registration." Too, to my knowledge if they're not sure if you're good to go you have to undergo an additional practical test (the SEC) to qualify, but assuming you're competent I don't imagine that would be an issue...

Since I'm looking at Canadian schools too, I can tell you that their accelerated degrees are 20 months long, 60 credits, and about 1000 clinical hours, so I'm thinking that as long as Columbia has the same credits and hours it should be ok, regardless of the length. I can also say that in Australia the US is on the list of countries from which they accept bachelors (I can't find the exact things, but it's somewhere on this page: http://www.anmc.org.au/international/assessment/index.php). The masters portion isn't really in question, it seems a lot more directly comparable since there's nothing accelerated or truncated about it.

So there's my debacle and assorted collected information. I just want to be really sure that I'm not shooting myself in the foot with this degree, because I really do want to be an NP (as fast as possible) but I also may very well like to come back to Canada or go back to Australia.

freyalisa · Mar 5, 2009

Charmed - I didn't realize you were coming specifically from an international perspective. Good luck with getting things sorted, it sounds like its been frustrating!

aspiring.midwife · Mar 5, 2009

Thanks again, Charmed. That information is really helpful. This issue wasn't even on my radar, so I'm glad you brought it up, and I will continue to research it. Thanks!