CNA's passing meds in ALF. What's your opinion?

[Marti Ann]

I have a big problem. I have been observing CNA techs passing meds in ALF's this year with huge med errors. Like not knowing the doses, side effects, checking with Doctor's for old orders.meds not in the drawers and pts. not get their meds for 10 days.What about a pt getting 17 PO meds at 8am!!!! Not one single nurse in the ALFs.

We as nurses go years to school to learn meds and general nursing tasks.

What is your opinion on this?

Thanks.

[chayslip]

Yes I would agree that there is more to taking care of my people than putting pills in there mouth. Perhaps you were not aware that CNA's and CMT's can lose there certifications as well. My point was that we can do the job as well if not better that those with almight degrees. I am getting ready to go for my LPN but if I am going to have these opinions expressed here I will rethink that decision. I have worked a long time in nursing and have observed mistakes by all staff. I worked with an RN once who dumped a whole tube feeding in at once and the resident asperated and died. So I am curious whether her education mattered to her when she made that mistake and now is without her job and will never work again in any state. I know for a fact that if I make a major error on the job my boss isnt on the line I am....I lose my certification and could never work again in nursing. We are as acountable as you whether u believe it or not. My attitude comes from the fact that we are looked at as incapable at doing our job and I am here to tell you that those of us who truly care for our residents do it far better than most...

[txspadequeenRN, BSN, RN]

There is more to popping pills than putting them in someones mouth. There is a level of education needed for popping those pills, that is just not received in med aide courses. I just got through supervising med aide clinicals, even though they were about to graduate they had no clue what any pill was.You will have one hard time trying to make any nurse with a almighty degree on this board think a med aide can pass pills better. And as for the nurse dumping the tube feeding, please clarify that. Just curious to know how much she put in the patient.

Yes I would agree that there is more to taking care of my people than putting pills in there mouth. Perhaps you were not aware that CNA's and CMT's can lose there certifications as well. My point was that we can do the job as well if not better that those with almight degrees. I am getting ready to go for my LPN but if I am going to have these opinions expressed here I will rethink that decision. I have worked a long time in nursing and have observed mistakes by all staff. I worked with an RN once who dumped a whole tube feeding in at once and the resident asperated and died. So I am curious whether her education mattered to her when she made that mistake and now is without her job and will never work again in any state. I know for a fact that if I make a major error on the job my boss isnt on the line I am....I lose my certification and could never work again in nursing. We are as acountable as you whether u believe it or not. My attitude comes from the fact that we are looked at as incapable at doing our job and I am here to tell you that those of us who truly care for our residents do it far better than most...

[txspadequeenRN, BSN, RN]

There is more to popping pills than putting them in someones mouth. There is a level of education needed for popping those pills, that is just not received in med aide courses. I just got through supervising med aide clinicals, even though they were about to graduate they had no clue what any pill was.You will have one hard time trying to make any nurse with a almighty degree on this board think a med aide can pass pills better. And as for the nurse dumping the tube feeding, please clarify that. Just curious to know how much she put in the patient.

Yes I would agree that there is more to taking care of my people than putting pills in there mouth. Perhaps you were not aware that CNA's and CMT's can lose there certifications as well. My point was that we can do the job as well if not better that those with almight degrees. I am getting ready to go for my LPN but if I am going to have these opinions expressed here I will rethink that decision. I have worked a long time in nursing and have observed mistakes by all staff. I worked with an RN once who dumped a whole tube feeding in at once and the resident asperated and died. So I am curious whether her education mattered to her when she made that mistake and now is without her job and will never work again in any state. I know for a fact that if I make a major error on the job my boss isnt on the line I am....I lose my certification and could never work again in nursing. We are as acountable as you whether u believe it or not. My attitude comes from the fact that we are looked at as incapable at doing our job and I am here to tell you that those of us who truly care for our residents do it far better than most...

[LPN1974, LPN]

Yes I would agree that there is more to taking care of my people than putting pills in there mouth. Perhaps you were not aware that CNA's and CMT's can lose there certifications as well. My point was that we can do the job as well if not better that those with almight degrees. I am getting ready to go for my LPN but if I am going to have these opinions expressed here I will rethink that decision. I have worked a long time in nursing and have observed mistakes by all staff. I worked with an RN once who dumped a whole tube feeding in at once and the resident asperated and died. So I am curious whether her education mattered to her when she made that mistake and now is without her job and will never work again in any state. I know for a fact that if I make a major error on the job my boss isnt on the line I am....I lose my certification and could never work again in nursing. We are as acountable as you whether u believe it or not. My attitude comes from the fact that we are looked at as incapable at doing our job and I am here to tell you that those of us who truly care for our residents do it far better than most...

Well, I tend to take someone at their word, and if you say you are capable I'm sure you are. However, there are some who are doing that job who are not capable...just as there are LPNs and RNs who also are not capable. They exist at every level, but I tend to think there are more compentent nurses out there than incompetent.

But alot of the posts on this thread indicate the degree of training that some people go thru to become CMTs and 2 or 4 hours, or even 2 weeks does not give someone a good background to be responsible for delivering medications and/or some of the other duties that go along with that.

Why, someone said that they weren't even trained how to take vital signs but yet were expected to be in charge of emergencies.

God forbid that I should ever have to become a patient in THAT facility.

In an ideal world no one would make a mistake. I'm sure you've made some, too. We all have, and anyone who says they haven't are not being honest.

If you know that you are capable in your job, I'm glad that you have that confidence.

But IMHO a person can never be too confident or feel so capable that extra study/education doesn't help.

Medicine is a constantly changing field and NOBODY knows it all. Always room for improvement.

I worked with an LPN who thought SHE was perfect. She was constantly nit picking on the rest of us, looking for OUR mistakes. She would constantly go over the MARS looking for stuff, even counting pills in bottles to match doses charted, etc. But I could also do the same and find mistakes on her.

I hate working with people like that.

We should work together, and help each other. RNs and LPNs have to work together, but I know that's not always done.

I'm not saying cover up medication mistakes, but there is alot we can do to help each other. There's alot we can do to help each other from making mistakes.

There is alot of animosity that exists between nurses of different education, and I've seen some of it here, on this board. Few I'm sure, would admit it.

Some nurses think just because they got that degree they don't have to do anything else, or that if another nurse of lesser education has an opinion it doesn't have as much weight.

There are also aides who do not respect the nurses. There are aides who think they do not have to do what an LPN asks them to do because they think they run the facility.

In short, it's a never ending battle. It's a big responsibility to just take care of the residents and try to get it done, much less have to deal with attitudes along the way.

And "the most" that you refer to, are not all incapable as you think.

They are also just as capable as you think you are, and that "almighty degree" is hard earned.

[LPN1974, LPN]

Yes I would agree that there is more to taking care of my people than putting pills in there mouth. Perhaps you were not aware that CNA's and CMT's can lose there certifications as well. My point was that we can do the job as well if not better that those with almight degrees. I am getting ready to go for my LPN but if I am going to have these opinions expressed here I will rethink that decision. I have worked a long time in nursing and have observed mistakes by all staff. I worked with an RN once who dumped a whole tube feeding in at once and the resident asperated and died. So I am curious whether her education mattered to her when she made that mistake and now is without her job and will never work again in any state. I know for a fact that if I make a major error on the job my boss isnt on the line I am....I lose my certification and could never work again in nursing. We are as acountable as you whether u believe it or not. My attitude comes from the fact that we are looked at as incapable at doing our job and I am here to tell you that those of us who truly care for our residents do it far better than most...

Well, I tend to take someone at their word, and if you say you are capable I'm sure you are. However, there are some who are doing that job who are not capable...just as there are LPNs and RNs who also are not capable. They exist at every level, but I tend to think there are more compentent nurses out there than incompetent.

But alot of the posts on this thread indicate the degree of training that some people go thru to become CMTs and 2 or 4 hours, or even 2 weeks does not give someone a good background to be responsible for delivering medications and/or some of the other duties that go along with that.

Why, someone said that they weren't even trained how to take vital signs but yet were expected to be in charge of emergencies.

God forbid that I should ever have to become a patient in THAT facility.

In an ideal world no one would make a mistake. I'm sure you've made some, too. We all have, and anyone who says they haven't are not being honest.

If you know that you are capable in your job, I'm glad that you have that confidence.

But IMHO a person can never be too confident or feel so capable that extra study/education doesn't help.

Medicine is a constantly changing field and NOBODY knows it all. Always room for improvement.

I worked with an LPN who thought SHE was perfect. She was constantly nit picking on the rest of us, looking for OUR mistakes. She would constantly go over the MARS looking for stuff, even counting pills in bottles to match doses charted, etc. But I could also do the same and find mistakes on her.

I hate working with people like that.

We should work together, and help each other. RNs and LPNs have to work together, but I know that's not always done.

I'm not saying cover up medication mistakes, but there is alot we can do to help each other. There's alot we can do to help each other from making mistakes.

There is alot of animosity that exists between nurses of different education, and I've seen some of it here, on this board. Few I'm sure, would admit it.

Some nurses think just because they got that degree they don't have to do anything else, or that if another nurse of lesser education has an opinion it doesn't have as much weight.

There are also aides who do not respect the nurses. There are aides who think they do not have to do what an LPN asks them to do because they think they run the facility.

In short, it's a never ending battle. It's a big responsibility to just take care of the residents and try to get it done, much less have to deal with attitudes along the way.

And "the most" that you refer to, are not all incapable as you think.

They are also just as capable as you think you are, and that "almighty degree" is hard earned.

[boulergirl, CNA]

chayslip, your posts DO come across as rather harsh (and I'm a med tech myself).

As far as my previous posts here about the conditions where I work, we now have a new nurse and some things are changing. Meds are no longer allowed to be laid out on the cart in marked souffle cups. When you pull the med, you give the med. Narcotics are REQUIRED to be counted by two med techs at the end of each shift, and we've got lock boxes in the carts. And we now have portable carts. Our new boss is cracking down on things, and I'm glad, because I didn't realize how lenient our old boss was! I had no idea we were supposed to check vitals on residents who took blood pressure medications, because the old nurse never mentioned or enforced this. Thank God I know how to do this (from my CNA training a decade ago). I bought my own BP cuff and stethoscope because we have a digital monitor that's basically a piece of junk.

I still wish there were more stringent regs and better screening/training of med techs, though. And all med techs need to know the protocol for emergencies.

[boulergirl, CNA]

chayslip, your posts DO come across as rather harsh (and I'm a med tech myself).

As far as my previous posts here about the conditions where I work, we now have a new nurse and some things are changing. Meds are no longer allowed to be laid out on the cart in marked souffle cups. When you pull the med, you give the med. Narcotics are REQUIRED to be counted by two med techs at the end of each shift, and we've got lock boxes in the carts. And we now have portable carts. Our new boss is cracking down on things, and I'm glad, because I didn't realize how lenient our old boss was! I had no idea we were supposed to check vitals on residents who took blood pressure medications, because the old nurse never mentioned or enforced this. Thank God I know how to do this (from my CNA training a decade ago). I bought my own BP cuff and stethoscope because we have a digital monitor that's basically a piece of junk.

I still wish there were more stringent regs and better screening/training of med techs, though. And all med techs need to know the protocol for emergencies.

[SRobinson]

The bottom line is that Owners of these ALF's want to make a profit.The owners usually are "in bed" with certain lawmakers (state level) and the laws made regarding ALF's favor the owners. They hire med aides/techs because the residents live in ASSISTED living. The med tech is supposed to ASSIST the resident with taking meds. But we know that most in assisted living need a higher level of care/supervision than they get in ALF and meds are administered. Been there, seen it. Used to go in to ALF's when I worked in HH.

[SRobinson]

The bottom line is that Owners of these ALF's want to make a profit.The owners usually are "in bed" with certain lawmakers (state level) and the laws made regarding ALF's favor the owners. They hire med aides/techs because the residents live in ASSISTED living. The med tech is supposed to ASSIST the resident with taking meds. But we know that most in assisted living need a higher level of care/supervision than they get in ALF and meds are administered. Been there, seen it. Used to go in to ALF's when I worked in HH.

[CHATSDALE]

the assisted in assisted may be different things for different people...some people think that they are doing their loved ones a favor by getting them assistance but do not want them in ltf because of the bad publicity [many times unearned]..

in any event if the facility [any type of facility] is going to be legally responsible for that resident, then they need have someone whose license in on the line...that is good for facility, for the resident, and for the caregiver

[CHATSDALE]

the assisted in assisted may be different things for different people...some people think that they are doing their loved ones a favor by getting them assistance but do not want them in ltf because of the bad publicity [many times unearned]..

in any event if the facility [any type of facility] is going to be legally responsible for that resident, then they need have someone whose license in on the line...that is good for facility, for the resident, and for the caregiver

[chayslip]

Perhaps I have been a little harsh I apologize if I have offended anyone. I am just used to standing up for myself and my profession and have been attacked one two many times. I think we all know whether it is assisted living or LTC what it comes down to is money. I love the residents and will continue to try the best I can to do the best care for them. The reality is change will never come because the goverment doesnt support it. Furthermore most places in my area would never hire an LPN because sadly they are not willing to pay that much to have someone pass meds. I dont agree with some of these regulations or the way they do things but thats the way the system has been for at least 15 years here in my state. such as life I guess.