Clinical Doctorate in Anesthsia

Lambert5883 · May 7, 2005

Try this thread. it is a recent thread about clinical doctorates.
https://allnurses.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89795&highlight=doctorate

Thanks for the lead, Pete495!

athomas91 · May 7, 2005

from what i understand of this -

not much would change. most programs do enough clinical time to qualify for a clinical doctorate - which is what an MD is as well - a clinical doctorate. i don't think it is a move to change anything really - it is more a progression to give CRNA's a title that they already worked for.

Tony35NYC · May 7, 2005

i don't think it is a move to change anything really - it is more a progression to give CRNA's a title that they already worked for.

True, as has already been said by someone else in another post, if we want to be medical doctors then we should go to medical school. Nursing is nursing, and medicine is medicine. But I don't agree with the person who said that CRNAs who go after these clinical doctorate degrees are MD wannabes. Why would it be so objectionable for a clinical doctorate CRNA to use a title after his/her name after earning it through years of post-post graduate studies and experience in anesthesia practice? The physicians are extremely proud of those letters behind their names and they demand respect because of those letters, so why shouldn't nurses, be?

One reason this MDA vs CRNA thing has become such an explosive issue is the fact that some MDAs refuse to accept that nurses can be anything but lower-level caregivers who wipe butts and pass meds. Its totally inconceivable and unacceptable to them that some of us dare to call ourselves advance practice clinicians. This is no different from what the AMA has been trying to do with NPs for years. The physicians recently tried (again) to get the Florida senate to restrict the practice of NPs in that state but it all backfired because the senators saw that the FMA was simply on a power trip. I believe the physicians will be defeated again when the senate bills to restrict CRNA practice come up for voting. Its so obvious that these bills are motivated by greed for more $$$.

VickyRN, MSN, DNP, RN · May 7, 2005

There is another BIG consideration to the practice doctorate for APRN's that no one has brought to mind - namely, where are the professors going to come from to teach all of these advanced practice nursing doctorate students? My school of nursing is clamoring to attract qualified faculty, as they are losing 5 instructors this year alone (several of these are full professors with doctorates). There are simply not enough nurse educators in the "pipes" to replace all of the aging nursing faculty. Presently, Masters level faculty are being used quite extensively to teach these advanced practice students. IF the practice doctorate becomes the standard, then only faculty with doctorates will be able to teach these students. There are simply not enough nursing faculty with doctorates to do this. And, this situation is only going to get worse (not better!) with time.

Trauma Columnist · May 7, 2005

You have a valid point there for sure.

loisane · May 8, 2005

There is another BIG consideration to the practice doctorate for APRN's that no one has brought to mind - namely, where are the professors going to come from to teach all of these advanced practice nursing doctorate students?

There is most assuredly a huge nursing faculty shortage. However, one of the arguments FOR the practice doctorate is that it will help the faculty shortage.

Expert clinicians are not always interested in the intense rigors involved with a PhD. It takes a very long time, and the emphasis is on research. While a practice doctorate definitely includes research, it is designed to be more grounded in the "real world", and should be very applicable to clinical practice.

Practice doctorates are not new, they have been around for awhile. What is new is the call to use them as entry level degrees for APNs. This is a natural fit, in IMHO.

It will take some time, but I think we will see an increase in the number of doctorate prepared faculty, as these degrees catch on, and pick up speed.

Lambert:Again, I am not a CRNA, so I do not know which model of practice nurse anesthesia most closley resembles.

Nurse anesthesia is most definitely NURSING and not medicine. Not all of health care is defined by medicine. There was a time when that was true, but that is so last century. Medicine will always remain an important part of health care. But other providers have legitimate, and important roles to play. And those roles are not defined as delegated aspects of medicine. Physicians are doctors of medicine. But they are not the only doctors out there.

[sOAPBOX] DOCTOR does not equal PHYSICIAN

MEDICINE does not equal HEALTH CARE [/sOAPBOX]

loisane crna

chicoborja · May 8, 2005

There is most assuredly a huge nursing faculty shortage. However, one of the arguments FOR the practice doctorate is that it will help the faculty shortage.
loisane crna

The faculty are needed before it produces DrNP graduates! I don't see how this helps the faculty shortage! I'm not sure about nursing but in many other fields tenure for faculty members (associate professor rank) requires an academic doctorate (e.g., PhD, EdD, ScD). The DrNP does not qualify as such. This would be not unlike hiring a MSNA (nothing wrong with that) as a faculty member. I dont see the justification for this claim.

Expert clinicians are not always interested in the intense rigors involved with a PhD. It takes a very long time, and the emphasis is on research. While a practice doctorate definitely includes research, it is designed to be more grounded in the "real world", and should be very applicable to clinical practice.
Practice doctorates are not new, they have been around for awhile. What is new is the call to use them as entry level degrees for APNs. This is a natural fit, in IMHO.
It will take some time, but I think we will see an increase in the number of doctorate prepared faculty, as these degrees catch on, and pick up speed.

agreed but these faculty members would not be doctorate prepared faculty in the research sense. they do not hold PhDs and would not significantly differ from MSNAs nor would they be likely to frequently publish in peer-reviewed journals as prinicpal investigators

Nurse anesthesia is most definitely NURSING and not medicine. Not all of health care is defined by medicine. There was a time when that was true, but that is so last century. Medicine will always remain an important part of health care. But other providers have legitimate, and important roles to play. And those roles are not defined as delegated aspects of medicine. Physicians are doctors of medicine. But they are not the only doctors out there.
[sOAPBOX] DOCTOR does not equal PHYSICIAN
MEDICINE does not equal HEALTH CARE [/sOAPBOX]
loisane crna

Many might consider Nurse Anesthesia more medicine than nursing. There are those who go into nursing with that sole goal in mind because they are interested in medicine and not nursing. Nurses and other allied health professionals are all important members of healthcare; however, physicans are and will remain the most completely and thoroughly trained healthcare members for the foreseeable future. This isnt meant to undermine the services provide by or education provided to nurses but rather to keep things in perspective.

ECMOismygame · May 8, 2005

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TexasCCRN · May 8, 2005

with all things being equal....why wouldn't a dsn/dnsc/dpn/dnp/drnp in anesthesiology be equivalent to that of a md/do?

if each doctorate in anesthsia program is effectively structured didactic & clinically...why not? this is suppose to be a *clinical* doctorate....right? it would require at least 2.5 to 5 years post masters...depending on the program's full or part-time program. heck...medical school is only four years post bacholer's plus those added residency years. the only difference in education/training would be one is under the nursing model & the other would be under the medical model. once one get that clinical doctorate with the appropriate clinical training...they *should* be on par with anaesthesiologists! otherwise ~ what's the point of the clinical doctorate?

cheers!
moe

there is no point. it's just like nursing diagnoses....trying to say that nursing is not part of medicine is rediculous. it seems to me the more we try to separate ourselves from medicine the deeper the rift between md's and nurses gets. seems like a bunch of bs. as far as being equal to the md's that will never happen! as far as they are concerned even god isn't quite on their level. you are right about the white lab coat, whoever said it. doesn't it just make you sick. it seems to me that just because we (crna's/srna's) have chosen a different route that somehow our iq is lower than theirs...i think not.

i just wish that nursing school was a prereq to medical school entrance. we take most of the same classes as premed students. nix all the how to come up with nursing diagnoses and wacky care plan classes, add a few physics, chem's, and there you have it. i think that our knowledge base would be looked at quite differently and we would have more respect, because everyone who would go on to be an md/do would have gone through the same stuff.

just my .02 worth!

Maxs · May 8, 2005

a nurse is a nurse is a nurse

Really? Wow!, and where did you get that? man, some people crack me up. The FIELD of NURSING is BIGGGGG! so a nurse is not a nurse because they differ in their Specialties (knowledge, skills, and etc in a certain area).

Maxs

ECMOismygame · May 8, 2005

......................................

sonessrna · May 8, 2005

haha thats funny i know that. i work beside nurses. not in the same hospital but actually beside them. no matter how much knowledge and specialty you have that RN behind you. same thing for a doc no matter whether theyre derms or ems. same for med surg nurses or cath lab nurses. they are still nurses thats what i meant.

I think you should clarify yourself a little bit there. How long have you worked beside nurses and with how many have you worked. Being a monitor tech exposes you to the nurses that work on a monitored floor. Have you ever worked with a nurse practitioner? CRNA? Nursing faculty? I think you would find the basic education is the same, the basic degree is the same, but just like you will not have any doctor agree that being a dermatologist is the same as being a transplant surgeon, you will not have nurses agree that being a nurse in hospice is the same as being a nurse in obstetrics. There have different skill sets, different talents and different job descriptions.