What would happen if someone accepted an offer from a hospital, anesthesia groups ect - page 2
to PAY for their tuition in exchange for a contract to work at their organization/facility and then decided or was not able to do so (for either a good or bad reason)? Wouldn't this amount to a... Read More
Mar 24, '04Occupation: ICU RN, BSN Joined: Feb '04; Posts: 506; Likes: 6[QUOTE=Roland]My mechanic which I use for my car is a convicted murderer who served time for killing someone about thirty years ago.QUOTE]
Roland, are you thinking about having an institution pay for training you in the continental US, then moving to Hawaii?
Mar 24, '04Occupation: SRNA Joined: Feb '03; Posts: 430; Likes: 2wntr i agree with you. it's just not right to do this in the first place and then to plan it ahead of time is just wrong.
Mar 24, '04Occupation: student nurses, BSN students, Joined: Jul '02; Posts: 819; Likes: 27WntrMute, I am not advocating any particular approach for others and I CERTAINLY wouldn't employ such a strategy personally (at least under any circumstance which I can foresee, for one thing my wife would divorce me). Also if you wouldn't be comfortable working along beside me based upon my intellectual, pursuit of free speech, that is of course your right. However, I am pointing out a very real situation that does in fact occur throughout CRNA's schools everywhere (and if I didn't bring it up who would?). It is true that I see myself as something of a self appointed advocate for testing the limits of free speech (since I believe that rights not exercised are rights soon lost). I also believe personally that abortion is MURDER under most circumstances, but wouldn't hesitate to present it as a POTENTIAL option for someone even though I personally disagreed with it being employed (I would attempt to talk them out of the procedure after I presented the option assuming my position allowed me to do so). It just so happens that I also have several potential SOLUTIONS for those offering these sort of incentive contracts:
1. REQUIRE, students who will receive incentive contracts to FIRST apply and take Stafford loans (which you will pay off AFTER they have fufilled their obligation). In this way the student cannot simply go to a different group, unless the other group is also willing to do this. In addition, since student loans cannot be discharged in most cases the student almost certainly WILL NOT walk away from the obligation.
2. Develop an internal database shared only among CRNA schools, and employers listing those who renege on contracts, AND OR engage in other unethical behavior. The mortage, appraisal, and Real Estate business HAVE such a database sponsored by an organization they formed called MARI (Mortgage Asset Research Institute). It has thus far survived legal challenges that it is "blacklisting" because it meets specific federal requirements including being confidential (only those who are MARI members may view the database). In that business being listed in MARI is essentially the end of your career. Such a potential "stick" would discourage almost everyone from abandoning a contract without an extremely good reason.
3. State specific, high, liquidated damages into any such incentive contract. Other posters mentioned ten percent, but I don't think this is nearly high enough. Instead, the amount should be closer to 100% of the first year's salary. Of course courts MIGHT not enforce such a high amount (then again they MIGHT if careful documentation of "damages" is undertaken). However, most potential contract breachers will not RISK that kind of damage amount. In addition, it is high enough to overcome other groups simply "buying out the penalty clause."
4. I mentioned this above in a different post. Make incentive beneficiaries SIGN non compete clauses that last a few years if they choose NOT to fufill their contract obigations. Again the court MIGHT not enforce the clause, but it's mere presence will tend to encourage compliance. Many businesses will not hire someone subject to a non-compete clause because they don't wish to risk the potential litigation.
Of course all of these "suggestions" should be carefully vetted by appropriate legal counsel as I am NOT an attorney. I would also point out to Wintermute that if even ONE of these suggestions is moderately effective, and subsequently employed that the issue has been advanced for everyone. That is because if enough of these contracts are broken employers will simply stop offering them and then everyone will lose.Last edit by Roland on Mar 24, '04
Mar 25, '04Joined: Feb '04; Posts: 287; Likes: 13I think that this breaking of contracts goes right along with the mentality of us Americans (I can't comment on other countries or cultures as I have little worldly exposure.). Personal responsiblity is a thing of the past, as is consideration for others and living up to your word. It's all about me getting mine these days. Laws and contracts are just guidelines and can be bent, broken or down right ignored when they apply to you.
This gives me the perfect idea. I'm gonna sign as many contracts as I can, drive my 7 series BMW to class, live in a luxury penthouse, sport my rolex and tiffany pens and when I'm done flip the groups the bird as I move out of state to go work elsewhere and job hop, collecting sign on bonuses as I go. I'll just claim stupidity and blame it on my parents and be exonerated of everything.
Mar 25, '04Occupation: RN. Neuro ICU Joined: Apr '02; Posts: 449; Likes: 3oh, brother. here we go again.
can't we all just get along.
Mar 25, '04Joined: Mar '04; Posts: 6[font='times new roman']wow, such a quandary, if you had some honor and integrity you wouldn't be so confused and even have considered this a possibility.
Mar 25, '04Occupation: Workers Comp Case Manager Joined: Oct '03; Posts: 464; Likes: 114I agree with Diet coke addict. It may be a little of the "forest before the trees" vision. I am all for having that "brass ring" when traveling the road of life but based on other posts by the OP I was under the impression that the OP has not even finished his RN yet. There are still many hoops to jump through ie: NCLEX, critical care experience before CRNA school will even be within his reach. Focusing on actually becoming an RN, getting into the critical care area and kicking butt there; should be in the forefront..neither of these things are done overnight or without some real effort. We all have to pay our dues!! As far as all of the discussion of defaulting on credit cards, bankruptcy and breaking contracts...The very backbone of healthcare is ethics!! Making intentional decisions such as these, will come back to bite you in the butt, that is a certain. Anyone that is only in it for me and would engage in something so unethical, I would not want to work next too nor would I want taking care of me..period.
Mar 25, '04Joined: Oct '03; Posts: 79Roland, did you have to go ahead and inject the "Abortion issue" into this discussion? Even if peripheral. And lets not forget that freedom of speech allows you to say what you want without going to jail, but does not protect you from being tossed out the building. I think that any CRNA that injects any personal (not professional) opinion or persuasion for or against a procedure should have there certification yanked in a heartbeat. But I did not mean to get off subject. But I also support free speech, and the fact that some people mistakenly believe that it allows them to speak without consequences is insulting to the bill of rights.
The idea of blacklisting someone or imposing ridiculous penalties is silly. We are all adults, and know that things eventually work out. I am sure that it is the very rare person that breaks the prepaid contract lightly. If it does start to happen more often the market will self correct by not offering such sweet contracts to first year students. I personally oppose additional levels governance when there is no hard need. I agree with the earlier writer that said that the anesthesia community was small enough to know who the good apples are, and who the slimy ones are.
I am stepping off of the soap box, and it is ready for the next person.
Mar 25, '04Joined: Mar '01; Posts: 1,012; Likes: 36Important attributes of a Professional nurse include, honesty, integrity, and commitment. Intentionally breaking an employment contract will come back to bite you! It shows your character! Even if you did it because of divorce, illness, etc. - you are still going to have a hard time explaining it away. If future employers find out - they will find you untrustworthy. Many will see this as tantamount to stealing, even if you do eventually pay it back. You have caused harm to this employer. Whose to say that you won't fake a work comp injury for the money? Steal supplies? falsify your time card?
Once you lose your integrity it is a hard thing to get back.
Mar 25, '04Occupation: RN. Neuro ICU Joined: Apr '02; Posts: 449; Likes: 3please for the love stop the violence
Mar 25, '04Joined: Jul '00; Posts: 11,351; Likes: 388The problem is thanks to the nursing shortage in general, I don't see people not getting hired for breaking a contract or any other unethical behaviour that hasn't resulted in a lawsuit.
Mar 25, '04Occupation: student nurses, BSN students, Joined: Jul '02; Posts: 819; Likes: 27There are many good points above that argue against such a rash course of action. I will try to respond to some of them:
1. I do not believe the MARI idea to be rash. After all if it is good enough for the Real Estate/Banking industry which accounts for over ten percent of our GDP, then it might also be useful in healthcare (it does raise cetain due process problems, but those could be handled with carefully thought out procedures before placing someone on the list).
2. I have never understood the concept of expressing angst just because someone raises an issue for discussion. Bringing up abortion, flag burning, or terrorism for that matter does not mean that someone takes a particular position on the issue. Rather, it is often the case that they wish to explore a particular aspect of the issue, and must create the rhetorical parameters conducive to that occuring. Thus, if this were a Biology forum I might raise the question, "What would happen if scientists chose to set up shop on the island of Nevis, and start human embrionic stem cell cloning experiments".
3. It is true however, that I sometimes take Plato's cave allegory to it's logical conclusion (man will do what is in his best interests unless restrained by law, or other sanction). This emanates from a view that life is largely "war" a struggle for the best girl, job, food ect, that sometimes involves cooperation and sometimes conflict.
Mar 25, '04Joined: Oct '00; Posts: 8,740; Likes: 8,431There are times, speaking of free speech, that people get so enthusiastic about showing off their knowledge, (without the judgement to use it properly) that they wind up showing off how dumb they are. Which is fine, they are only hurting themselves.
But sometimes people will be showing off and use a hot button topic, just to make everyone listen to them. (Like a kid who starts walking a fencepost so his mom will pay attention.) Then the potential to hurt people's feelings just ruins the conversation, and shows disrespect for everyone around them.
Luckily, most of us gave up showing off at age 5.