calling the md at night when charge disagrees

Nurses New Nurse

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Hey Friends

Im looking for some advice. The other night I had a patient who abruptly had a change in their respiratory status and suddenly became tachypneic and had increasing hr. I wanted to call the md because I knew something was up and I asserted this multiple times to the charge nurse, who kept stating that it was too late at night to call and I should wait. The patient ended up decompensating (and wouldnt you after 3hrs of working to breathe?) and had to be intubated shortly after I left. I feel like it's my fault because I should have some how asserted myself differently to the charge nurse, but on the other hand, I also need to be respectful of the charge nurse who has more experience.

How can I respectfully go against the recommendation of the charge nurse next time? I feel like I made my point multiple times each hour that I wanted to call and I was worried she was worsening. I understand that in most cases, I should trust the charge nurse, but what about those times (like this time) when you just know that something is up with your patient? How can I do better next time? I definitely still need to ask before I call, but how can I get around it if they say no and I really really feel like I need to call?

Thanks :)

Specializes in Psych, LTC, Acute Care.

On my unit, we have to talk to the charge nurse first before we call the neurosurgeons because they have to do surgeries the next day. Our charge nurses are pretty flexible. If I am insistent that they have to be called, she doesn't stop me. Good Luck to you! Your gonna be fine. I would not make a big deal about it to the charge nurse. The next time you have to call a Dr. at night and she says "No". Just tell her that you think your gonna call anyway and tell her give this example.

I actually do it the other way around...FIRST I call the doctor, THEN I fill in the charge. "Oh, BTW, Mr. Toadbowel is fixin' to crump on me. Just a heads-up. Don't worry, I already called Dr. Foulsmell. Waiting on callback."

This is a highly skilled way to handle a superior, no matter the field. They are informed of the situation and how you are handling it and they don't have to do a thing.

A good supervisor will adore you. A freakazoid control freak supervisor won't like it that you didn't inform her before you went to the bathroom, but she can't do much about it - it is clear that you are on top of the situation and it's not like you can UN-call the MD.

Specializes in CICU, radiology, psych.

It's your license, you worked hard to get it. Find out what your written chain of command is at your workplace and follow it, because lawyers will be looking at that. You are your patient's advocate. Follow the chain of command if you must. I understand if your new and want to run something by the charge nurse but if she gives you advice that makes no sense to you, ask in a nice way what her reasoning process on the subject is so that you can learn. By the way, just because it's late is not a reason, just an excuse. Make sure your giving all the details, and assessment changes your seeing happen. When you call the Md, have your facts together and a plan for what needs to be done. We use SBAR at our hospital to give report. That means give the situation, background, assessment, and your recommendation. Also have your request ready, your more likely to get whatever you want if you ask for it directly. So what if the doctor is irritated, it's not your job to keep him happy. It's your job to keep his patient's safe and improving. When I first started I worked at a small private hospital and actually had Md tell us, "don't call me I'm going home to sleep". At first I was naive and in awe by Md degree and experience and my lack thereof. After I saw and experienced a few things happen like your relating I started looking a things differently. Just because I don't have Md behind may name it does not mean my decision or thought process is faulty. I'm the one there who sees what is going on, Md's are going to hear about it if I feel like they need to no matter what anyone else thinks. My response to don't call me became,"would you rather me just wait till they code then call you after the fact?" After 3 years there I went to a large teaching hospital. We are encouraged to ask, advocate and assert. It's not being rude or disrespectful, it's just a matter of always doing what's best for your patient. Being assertive is something that will be learned real fast after you've been burned like this a few time. Have confidence in yourself and your skills, you were on the right track but just missed a connection.:twocents:

Specializes in critical care, PACU.
Were O2 sats dropping? Was there a change in breath sounds? Did you try other things first, such as increasing O2 per nasal cannula? When that wasn't working, did you try a venti mask? Did the patient have a prn respiratory treatment? Do you have respiratory therapists on hand that you can call?

I increased the nasal cannula and she was satting ok about 92-96. I did think in retrospect that I should have tried the venti mask...the thought didnt occur to me until later because the pt wasnt desatting, but I bet if I gave her more oxygen sooner she might not have been tachypneic to overcompensate. She didnt have respiratory treatments. I cant call a rapid response--Im in ICU and the charge nurse is the rapid response here. So if she thought it was okay and no further intervention was needed, this is why I trusted her.

The pt wasnt rapidly deteriorating, she was tolerating, it wasnt until about right before I finally called that I felt she was starting to decompensate. The breath sounds were consistent, there wasnt any sign of any cause for it like PE or pneumo. The HR was higher but it had been all night and she didnt have a change in rhythm or threw any PVCs. Periph pulses and BP were good. No retractions but abdominal breathing.

The reason I wanted to call so much wasnt so much that the patient was about to code or they were in need of immediate intervention, it was more that I knew this was an abrupt change in the condition. I have to do hourly assessments and I notice right away when there is a change. I also knew and have seen pts completely decompensate after being tachyneic for awhile.

The patient probably persisted in tachypnea for about two and half hours before I called--which I feel was way too long.

Specializes in critical care, PACU.

thank you all for the good advice. that's a great idea to use this time as an example if I get shot down again when trying to call the md.

I did feel good about my SBAR that day. Its so cool when you recommend stuff and they agree. I just wish I did it sooner. I recommended lasix cuz the pt was more than 500ml + that day and had a hx of CHF, and got the venti mask order and blood cx, but I asked if he wanted to do a CXR and ABG and he said no. I dont understand why not for that, especially because they ended up electively intubating later after the next nurse got a stat ABG without an order.

Specializes in Oncology, Med-Surg, Nursery.

Sounds like something needs to change around there. Granted, I can only speak from the experience I have and in all 3 areas I have worked in, the charge nurse standing in the way of a phone call hasn't happened. So I can only come at this from my POV and I don't mean any offense, I promise.

The patient is your responsibility. When push comes to shove, that charge nurse isn't going to take the fall if there is one to be taken. That is what I try to tell myself. Other nurses may not always agree with your choices, but they also aren't going to step up and take the fall when something happens as a result of you taking said advice. That is why I say to always go with your gut. Most of the time it won't fail you.

As for the future - I would just tell her you were calling and that would be the end of it. If she tried to tell you it was a bad time or that she didn't feel it was necessary then I'd politely tell her that it will be you, not her, that the MD will be angry with should he/she get angry. It's better to have a couple people mad at you than for something to happen to your patient.

I am sorry you had to deal with that so soon into your career. Good luck in all you do! :)

Specializes in Trauma ICU, Peds ICU.
I did trust the charge's judgment over my own.

Your charge nurses "judgment" was based on how late at night it was. I wouldn't trust anyone with priorities so skewed.

Specializes in CVICU, CCU, Heart Transplant.

Really great thread! I learn so much from reading all of your great ideas.

Specializes in critical care, PACU.

just to f/u, I was able to chart a late entry to CMA and I sought the advice of my nurse educator. I turned to him because I thought, coming from a nonmanagerial standpoint, he could give me advice without seeking to punish the charge. well, turns out I was wrong and now everyone knows and now Im out of the night shift "circle of trust".

I definitely know what I will do next time though--speak to no one and come straight to allnurses and fight for my patient despite the consequences.

Specializes in Cardiac.

Im thinking next time that Ill just say, "I know it might not seem like a reason to call to you, but I feel like I need to call regardless to cover myself."

Perfect. It is your pt and your license!

Specializes in PeriOperative.

At the end of my orientation, my preceptor told me, "it is always better to ask for forgiveness, not for permission." I know this is true in my hospital/department.

As far as the "circle of trust" goes, at two weeks off of orientation you were never in it. This is one of the things that makes nursing so hard as a new grad and one of the reasons the experienced nurses have the "eating their young" reputation. They don't trust you. And they are all talking about you and trying to figure you out as a nurse and a person. I'd estimate it takes a good 6 months to a year to really earn their trust, depending on the unit.

Asserting yourself is a good thing.

Gossiping (or anything that might be perceived as gossiping) is the fastest way for a new grad to cut their legs out from under them. Allnurses is a safe place for you to vent and seek advice. Maybe you have a classmate that you are close too -- they would also be a good resource. Other than that, be REALLY careful what you say and who you say it to.

Specializes in critical care, PACU.

thanks yeah I am keeping my mouth shut from now on.

I am glad I said something because I was able to correct my charting and cover myself and learn how to handle things in the future, but I think Ill just come here from now on and keep my mouth shut.

being a new nurse is hard enough as it is without having work politic problems

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