Calling A Code Death (call police?)

[Jcezz]

I have been a CNA for 3 years, lvn 6 year, RN for 1 year in California in a subacute setting. I have always known that if a patient is full code and died unsuspectedly, you always call police after 911 paramedics can’t resuscitate the patient and time of death is called in by the cctrn. I have always called the police in the past to file a report and get a case number and badge number added in my documentation in case the family members want to file lawsuit after a death of a full code. I have also known that you need to call family if they want to do an autopsy, because you can’t pull out trach tubes, foley and gt if they want to do an autopsy.  So my girlfriend who is a director of nursing of a snf said that it is up to the family member if they want to do a coroner’s report with the police, she said that there is no need to find holes to bury yourself into. I feel that it is incorrect and feel more vulnerable because having a police walk in the facility and write a report that there was no visible foul play that had happened would help a lot in defense in the court. So call police after full code death with or without family consent?

[No Stars In My Eyes]

I'm an oldie-moldy. Never one time in my 40+ years of nursing have I ever even heard of the necessity to call police to report a patient's death. Just had to have an RN or a doc to pronounce the patient, and then off to the mortuary they go. I learn something new every day!

[salpn]

It's one thing to have a patient die in a medical facility.   It's different if they die at home on in a non-medical care situation.

[Jcezz, RN]

12 minutes ago, salpn said:

It's one thing to have a patient die in a medical facility.   It's different if they die at home on in a non-medical care situation.

But a lot of facilities causes patients’ death. Neglecting the needs to be suctioned in a subacute setting causing death may lead to police investigations as well. Neglect is one of the types of abuse, that needs to be reported to the state and police. There was one that happened in hayward california during pandemic where the owner of a snf kept accepting covid patients without red zones and proper PPE that lead to 20+ patients dying. Prima got sued for millions.

[MunoRN, RN]

3 minutes ago, Jcezz said:

But a lot of facilities causes patients’ death. Neglecting the needs to be suctioned in a subacute setting causing death may lead to police investigations as well. Neglect is one of the types of abuse, that needs to be reported to the state and police. There was one that happened in hayward california during pandemic where the owner of a snf kept accepting covid patients without red zones and proper PPE that lead to 20+ patients dying. Prima got sued for millions.

I guess I'm not clear if you're saying you called the police after a patient death because you were reporting that the death occurred due to negligence / neglect, or that you wanted the police to somehow verify that this wasn't the cause of the death.

[Jcezz, RN]

1 minute ago, MunoRN said:

I guess I'm not clear if you're saying you called the police after a patient death because you were reporting that the death occurred due to negligence / neglect, or that you wanted the police to somehow verify that this wasn't the cause of the death.

We call them to look at the patient and confirm that there was no visible evidence that foul play occured, because they can only see physical evidence and write a report. They won’t know if a patient died from hypotension due to overdose of bp meds, or respiratory depression due to narcotics. But they can see if patient was strangled, choked, or attack with blunt force

[MunoRN, RN]

19 minutes ago, Jcezz said:

We call them to look at the patient and confirm that there was no visible evidence that foul play occured, because they can only see physical evidence and write a report. They won’t know if a patient died from hypotension due to overdose of bp meds, or respiratory depression due to narcotics. But they can see if patient was strangled, choked, or attack with blunt force

It's certainly one thing if it's a requirement to notify the police in the event of a patient death.  But if you're calling the police to remove suspicion that the patient died as a result of foul play, then it seems that would cause far more suspicion than it prevents.

If, for instance, family wanted to pursue a civil case against staff or a facility, the fact that someone called the police as a result of the death would be useful ammunition for them.  Trying to explain that you called police because no crime occurred would sound pretty fishy.

[Jcezz, RN]

4 hours ago, MunoRN said:

It's certainly one thing if it's a requirement to notify the police in the event of a patient death.  But if you're calling the police to remove suspicion that the patient died as a result of foul play, then it seems that would cause far more suspicion than it prevents.

If, for instance, family wanted to pursue a civil case against staff or a facility, the fact that someone called the police as a result of the death would be useful ammunition for them.  Trying to explain that you called police because no crime occurred would sound pretty fishy.

Found it, took a while.  

California health and safety code section 102850

A physician and surgeon, physician assistant, funeral director, or other person shall immediately notify the coroner when he or she has knowledge of a death that occurred or has charge of a body in which death occurred under any of the following circumstances:

(c) Where the attending physician and surgeon or the physician assistant is unable to state the cause of death.

 

[MunoRN, RN]

14 hours ago, Jcezz said:

Found it, took a while.  

California health and safety code section 102850

A physician and surgeon, physician assistant, funeral director, or other person shall immediately notify the coroner when he or she has knowledge of a death that occurred or has charge of a body in which death occurred under any of the following circumstances:

(c) Where the attending physician and surgeon or the physician assistant is unable to state the cause of death.

 

I totally agree with notifying the coroner, the coroner and police are two different entities.

[hppygr8ful, ASN, RN, EMT-I]

On 8/13/2022 at 9:28 PM, MunoRN said:

I haven't heard of getting police involved when no suspicion of a crime occurred, I'm curious how that conversation goes with the officers.  

Officer: "so what seems to be problem?"

Facility staff: "Somebody died and we want you to confirm that no foul play occurred."

Officer:  "Do you have reason to believe the death was the result of a crime?"

Facility staff:  "No"

Officer: "Well then, my job is done here".

 

I'm also not clear why this would only apply to full code patients and not DNR.

And I assume there are places where families can request an autopsy, but in various areas where I've worked only the Medical Examiner / Coroner can choose whether or not to perform and autopsy.

I know that a family can request an autopsy in CA but if coroner doesn’t not order one the autopsy is done by a private company and paid for by the family 

[SharpKid]

Just recently my 80 y/o brother died, after a fall off the porch and fracturing C1 and C2.  He was walking his huge dog (140 lb) who bolted after some deer, and pulling him off the porch and causing the fall.  911 was called immediately, CPR was initiated, he was shocked once, and went into sinus rhythm in the 50's.  The police were also there the whole time.   There was 1 other witness who watched everything, and talked to the MD's and hospital staff. Then he was transported to the ER, intubated without anesthesia, and moved to ICU.  The ER doctor also had the records and statements from EMT's.  The ER doctor agreed with me that if my brother pulled through this that he would probably be a quadriplegic.  Later that day, I requested an EEG, which was done that evening.  The next day we learned that he had very little brain activity, and the intensivist had a discussion with the family: his wife and daughters and me.  His wife made him a DNR (my job was support for her, I had no legal role). He was extubated the next day with only immediate family present, and had his celestial discharge within a few minutes.  The intensivist assured us that there would not be an autopsy, or any problems or questions about his death, as he had reviewed all the records pre-admission including the police report. 

The funeral home was called, all papers were signed, and we went home to grieve.  Later that day we found out that an autopsy had been requested, and the hospital would not release his body to the funeral home.  We later figured out that his daughter requested the autopsy just to spite her step-mother, as she had never liked her, and routinely bad-mouthed her.  I went online and found out that any family member can request an autopsy in this state, and that the rest of us could do nothing about it.  Eventually, nothing fishy was found, but the funeral was delayed for an entire week, which greatly upset my elderly sister-in-law.  The fact that the police and EMT's reports were reviewed was helpful in proving that my sister-in-law had no hand in foul play.  Still, I resent my bratty niece for requesting the autopsy just to spite her step-mother.

 

[MEDFET, CNA]

 https://www.Google.com/amp/s/fox11online.com/amp/news/coronavirus/lawsuit-country-villa-assisted-living-facility-covid-19-deaths-pulaski-federal-court

This is what your saying?  speaking of  lawsuits in california especially real time presently now!  Thank you, for sharing this especially knowing that we often are thrown in without really getting any headsup on what is really going on. We have seen change in shifts and vague inacurate reports on condition before patients assessed and some patients have dropped had accidental falls fell in bathrooms hit their heads and sent back minutes after  arrival as DOA ...done post mortum care in all above. hospitals, covid units

during covid we had hard enough time to get the paramedics or others to transport living patients when we cleaned bagged and tagged we didn't know what happened from there some places employed  had a seperate building to store the bodies and it was best solution from what I have seen or experienced outside hospital where its all the post mortum care but alongside the nurse all tubings were removed minus feeding tubes. The only other complaint was experiencing patients with live maggots living in wounds because patient would not allow amputaion and  at end of life it was traumatic to preform post mortum care on that patient as she was not treated by tge nursing staff neglectful it was tge facility understaffed poor quality of care ? many things happen in some of these nursing homes and we often wonder what the future holds especially in CA with the lack of support and staff there many outdated never had anything done to upgrade its sad they are so old and like sickning depressing to witness

[shin_eee]

I have been working as a CNA for over a year now and I have experienced one death (was not my assignment). I personally did not call the police but I do recall an officer coming in and taking report (I am assuming either the nurse or EMT called). I work in California, but I am guessing it depends on the state.