BSN vs. ADN

Palpitations · Jun 22, 2000

I have to agree that the "trained monkeys" remark was kinda cold. (sheesh) ...but on the otherhand, soon the powers that be will only be requiring a certificate to pass meds. They're going to take the degree and licensing part out of it. Take for instance this new law passed in Kansas:

"the administration of medications to residents of adult care homes or to patients in hospital-based longterm care units, including state operated institutions for the mentally retarded, by an unlicensed person who has been certified as having satisfactorily completed a training program in medication administration approved by the secretary of health and environment education adopted by the secretary, or by an unlicensed person while engaged in and as a part of such training program in medication administration;"

You guys are right the degree doesn't matter, the skills do. I believe that this means that CMAs will be able to pass medications in the hospitals' skilled nursing units. What's next?

Originally posted by justanurse:
ADN = Associate Degree Nurse - takes 2 years to complete program - generally given at a community based college that is affiliated with a larger state university. The ADN program stresses nursing.

BSN = Baccelareate (?sp) of Science in Nursing - generally takes 4 years and is offered at university level. The BSN program stresses nursing, along with business/management courses.

Diploma - are trained by a hospital based program - generally takes 2 or 3 years. Very thorough with LOTS of clinical experience.

Yes, we do take the same test for registered nursing.

Degree is generally not a point of contention between most nurses. Unless someone makes a snide remark, then all h--- usually breaks out. Never had a problem at work, as I said, we all care about how we treat each other and the patients, not the degree behind the license. It's after I came on here that it seemed to be such a touchy subject. Hmmmmm, maybe it's that MONKEY remark, things like that kind of get under your skin, you know. We are all human.(snipped)

LRM · Jun 23, 2000

Thanks justanurse, looks like our processes (USA & Oz) are quite different at the end of the day but the bottom line is that all are licensed RNs and those with further qualifications (uni etc.)can advance their management skills if wanted & those who want to concentrate on pt care more can do just that (not that BSN can't do good pt care, don't get me wrong!)

Don't know about pay scales but I guess if you are taking on same pt load/ responsibilities then they should be similar but it can be a very contentious argument & I don't know enough about how your pay scales work to argue either side.

Happy nursing!

Thought for the day "If you employ monkeys you only have to pay peanuts!"

LRM · Jun 23, 2000

Thanks justanurse, looks like our processes (USA & Oz) are quite different at the end of the day but the bottom line is that all are licensed RNs and those with further qualifications (uni etc.)can advance their management skills if wanted & those who want to concentrate on pt care more can do just that (not that BSN can't do good pt care, don't get me wrong!)

Don't know about pay scales but I guess if you are taking on same pt load/ responsibilities then they should be similar but it can be a very contentious argument & I don't know enough about how your pay scales work to argue either side.

Happy nursing!

Thought for the day "If you employ monkeys you only have to pay peanuts!"

maikranz · Jun 23, 2000

At the risk of getting slammed:

To clarify about Certified Medical Assistants: they don't work in acute care, read--hospital clinical unit. They are ambulatory care / healthcare provider office workers. The UAP you / we should be concerned about is the Nursing AssistantI or II, who may or may not be Certified, whose primary areas of employment include rest/nursing homes and hospitals. Makes me nervous what they are permitted to do in my state. As for passing meds, read your state BON ruling /Nurse Practice Act re: who may pass meds in rest home situations.

Everyone is arguing /sniping over ADN/BSN--for heaven's sake quit it!!!! As long as we take the same exam, as long as the results are recorded the same way, it doesn't matter! I took a 5-part, 2-day, ~14 hour exam. Today, RN-candidates have to answer, how many? 75 questions? to pass. Does it make my license any more than yours? You're right--it DOESN'T and just as many ____ passed then as do now regardless of basic nursing education preparation. Are we going to be so caught up in the perpetual "my degree is better than your degree" blather that we won't see that we have been phased out of the healthcare picture altogether! It's just one more way to keep us fighting AGAINST each other and I, for one, have never been so frightened about the status of nursing practice as I am today.

I think what Goldilocks was saying, is that anyone can be trained to hand out meds, hang an IV, but what takes it beyond a task is the EXPERT ability to recognize that "no, that particular medication is lethal when given with that other medication" or that it is not prudent to start the IV with a 23g Jelco, that blood may be needed, so use an 18g instead. Expertise comes with experience and continued education, HOWEVER YOU ACQUIRE IT, and that is what should be compensated. And no, a BSN doesn't confer that expertise automatically and, yes, if I graduated from a 4-5yr. institution it would be nice to have a tad bit degree-differential (when I was a new diploma grad, the ADN grads started out with more $/hr due to the degree). Goodness, how could y'all seriously think that she was calling ADN grads monkeys" --honestly! Talk about deliberately misunderstanding someone.

For my final $0.02 (and then I promise I'll get off my soapbox), let me remind everyone that we nurses are more than 1,000,000 strong. Imagine the powerful voice we would have if we spoke together as one. That's MY dream.

Remember the new nurses that you're working with--we were there not so long ago....

[This message has been edited by maikranz (edited June 22, 2000).]

goldilocksrn · Jun 23, 2000

I didn't mention the "monkey" remark as a slam to ADNs. What I am saying is that if we don't start respecting education in our profession, pretty soon a certified "monkey" will be doing our job. I don't think the general public realizes just how much we do. We need to respect education and how it separates us from the monkeys. Much respect for all RNs.

LRM · Jun 23, 2000

Totally with you all, thats why we need to think about this 'Thought for the day "If you employ monkeys you only have to pay peanuts!"'

Just as maikranz said, it is the unqualified/ unregistered/ uncontrolled / unassessed staff that COST LESS being employed to fill the gaps who will create unsafe nursing environments.

Remember, the RN is usually responsible for allocating work to them and maintaining safety standards so on behalf of the pts lets advocate for acceptable numbers of qualified staff on each shift.

PS: Similiar things are happening in oz too!

justanurse · Jun 23, 2000

Then what are we arguing about. We are all educated, we all passed the test and I try my best to be respectful of others. I didn't deliberately misunderstand, we're talking about ADN & BSN nurses on this topic and who should make more money. Lets get our facilities to go for those clinical ladders, so that we all that do patient care can have a piece of the pie, whether we want to be ADN, BSN, or have certifications. I have no problem with that, then everyone has an opportunity to earn an extra incentive, and I don't have to return for my BSN, which I don't really want. And, we also stop the arguing about who is just as good as each other. We've all been trained to think above the "monkey" concept, we are all trained to think ahead, think of our patients, while thinking of the big picture. I'm all for not arguing, it makes me feel so crappy. I'm tired enough with getting back to work. There's enough these days that can make you feel that way.

You all have a safe weekend, HAPPY SUMMER!!!

egmillard · Jun 23, 2000

SO WHAT DO DIPLOMA NURSES MAKE. PROBABLY LESS THAN DEGREE NURSES. A NURSE IS A NURSE, IF THEY DO THE SAME JOB, THEN THEY SHOULD BE PAID THE SAME. IF THEY HAVE MORE REPOSNSIBILITY AND EXPERIENCE, THEN THE SALARY SHOULD REFLECT THAT.

lls · Jun 23, 2000

I work in IN and we do get more money for BSN but at this time not for the MS. We belong to ISTA (union). Have any of you taken the national certification for school nursing?

Mijourney · Jun 23, 2000

Hi,

Goldilocksrn, thanks for your comment about my last post. I was concerned, however, about your comment regarding ADNs and monkeys, but you cleared that up.

As a old school three year diploma nurse with a BSN, I feel that BSN nurses should get paid more than nurses from two or three year programs whether it's for the same job or not. However, neither employers or physicians take educational background in consideration when it comes to RNs unless it is specifically related to pay. In my area, for instance, job postings preferring a BSN nurse will accept an ADN nurse depending on experience. The pay scale, unfairly in my opinion, will start lower for a position preferring a BSN than for a job posting requiring a BSN. The same is true for job postings preferring a MSN but accepting BSN applicants. Lowering the pay scale is unfair in my mind, because as many posters have written, the same job is going to be requested of both the BSN and ADN nurse. That's one of my main arguments for establishing BSN as entry level. Nurses from all backgrounds have a lot to offer and most that I know of deserve more pay in general. But employers need to be stopped from exploiting our educational backgrounds with varying the pay scale as they do with certain positions. Clinical ladders can work if administered objectively and not subjectively as many supervisors tend to do.

lita1857 · Jun 24, 2000

Actually in 22yrs of nursing, as an RN from 3yr diploma program/ Assoc. degree they were ahead of their time in '75 I have found certification/clinical ladders/performance appraisals to be the way I increased my hourly wage(30/hr).Almost mathmatically works out to $9 base(where I started) plus $1 per year....I also don't forget I work 40hrs so I receive full benefit package of 14hrs of vacation per month(accrued every 2wks into imaginary bank) 40 hrs paid time off, 50% of my health care choice. I do support degrees, think it's the way to raise the salary for nurses to a repectable level.

goldilocksrn · Jun 29, 2000

I guess an answer is a long time coming.