Becoming an NP with little to no nursing experience??

core0 · Dec 17, 2006

No, I do not think they are incompetant and no one here has intimated that. Just very very inexperienced, have zero situations to reflect upon other than those very few patients with whom they have had contact as students in clinicals, lack the astute diagnostic abilities as they relate to the disease process for they've not had the experience to work with and/or troubleshoot many scenarios/situations, and are woefully unprepared for the real world.
On another note, if you are truly interested in liability stats as they relate to the RN and/or NP, I suggest you start another thread about this topic for we have ventured off topic discussing liability issues.
Now, back to the topic at hand: "Becoming an NP with little to no nursing experience??"

But can you assume all nurses have equal exposure to scenarios and situations just because they have experience. Surely you have seen NP's that are unable to process this information as NP's (unable to make the leap so to speak)? Or what about qualitative differences in experience? Is a med surg nurse the same as an ICU nurse? Nursing educators and at least one state BON state that the NP's only qualifications are what they learned as NP's not their previous experience as nurses.

There are a number of assumptions here that may or may not be true about how useful nursing experience is as an NP. It is similar to a previous post asking why someone would want a nurse with less experience as an NP. This assumes that an NP that is an experienced nurse would be able to see patients faster than an NP that is an inexperienced nurse. I think these are two different skillsets.

Finally a question to Siri - as someone who is looking at a Hospital job. My understanding is that since hospitals have relatively deep pockets that they have assets to use if an award goes over the amount of insurance they carry (alleviating the need for an NP or PA to pay out of pocket). In private practice it is common for the employer to pay for malpractice. Is th insurance. Is this common in institutional settings.

David Carpenter, PA-C

core0 · Dec 17, 2006

O
C) In settling the defendant admits NO WRONGDOING

I'll just address one of these issues. If you settle, you are entered in the national practitioner data bank. This is reportable on your license in most states and on credentialling in most hospitals. One of the things that you want to ensure is that you have the right to make a decision on settlements and not let the insurance company do it for you. This is also why you want your own policy, not the policy of the practice. You want to make sure whatever decisions are in your best interest.

David Carpenter, PA-C

Sheri257 · Dec 17, 2006

I'll just address one of these issues. If you settle, you are entered in the national practitioner data bank. This is reportable on your license in most states and on credentialling in most hospitals. One of the things that you want to ensure is that you have the right to make a decision on settlements and not let the insurance company do it for you. This is also why you want your own policy, not the policy of the practice. You want to make sure whatever decisions are in your best interest.
David Carpenter, PA-C

Thank you. Again, this is my point exactly.

While the issue of lawsuits may seem off topic to some, to me, it's not.

My original point was: the additional potential liability alone would be reason enough to want nursing experience as an NP, IMHO.

I won't debate the legal aspects any further (as requested by the moderator) but, I just wanted to clarify why I brought it up in the first place.

:typing

Miss Ludie · Dec 17, 2006

Been scanning this thread with some amount of interest. I feel that some here are playing devil's advocate, shaking cages, pulling chains. But all in all there has been some intriguing debate.

There is one word that has bothered me Uberman and that is:

Hence the double phallacy

Is this intentional misspelling in order to proclaim your Uber-station in life? It just jumps off the page. The closest I could find to a definition of the P word is that of phallacea which is a family of fungi.

Meanwhile, I will return to my silent spot and read on.

bluesky, BSN, RN · Dec 17, 2006

There are a number of assumptions here that may or may not be true about how useful nursing experience is as an NP. It is similar to a previous post asking why someone would want a nurse with less experience as an NP. This assumes that an NP that is an experienced nurse would be able to see patients faster than an NP that is an inexperienced nurse. I think these are two different skillsets.
David Carpenter, PA-C

The whole point is, that bedside nursing develops all

those skillsets. Now, can an experienced nurse see patients faster than an inexperienced RN? Well, if you are trying to assert that an inexperienced practitioner of any ilk can make as effective and comprehensive an assessment as an experienced one (who has been assessing for years), on average, then you are quite a brave person. As a patient, for myself, I will take the NP with the nursing experience, Thank You.

Trauma Columnist · Dec 17, 2006

Bluesky - that is my point also. I am a new APN (graduated May 06) and I came to a large nephrology practice where there are many chronic patients. They are well-versed consumers and know what an APN is. They ask good questions too. Many have asked me over the past few months about my professional background. When they hear I'm a new grad APN they always ask what else I've done. When I tell them that I have 10 years experience in our local level one trauma center and another year in the ICU, they all relax and know they are in experienced hands.

Most patients nowadays are good consumers - many of the lay public are aware of what an APN is and what they do and many prefer them as their primary care provider. I think though that we stand a chance to lose some credibility if we as a profession allow the MSN direct entry NP programs to proliferate.

The schools are the ones that push this course of education: its more money in their pockets and gives way to the "let's have it now" generation.

Editorial Team / Admin · Dec 17, 2006

Surely you have seen NP's that are unable to process this information as NP's (unable to make the leap so to speak)? Or what about qualitative differences in experience? Is a med surg nurse the same as an ICU nurse?

Yes, many times I see NPs who have difficulty with the transition from RN to NP. The ones (NPs) who have had greater difficulty are the ones without RN experience (and, no, that is not the ONLY reason they have difficulty). I know you do not want to "hear" this statement (NPs need RN experience), but that's my own personal experience as I serve as NP mentor. Mentor to both DE NPs as well as NPs who have RN experience.

I rather find that ICU nurses possess a great deal of Med-surg experience. And, of course they (ICU, Med-Surg) are not the same. Former is acute and latter is chronic.

Nursing educators and at least one state BON state that the NP's only qualifications are what they learned as NP's not their previous experience as nurses.

True. Graduation from an APN program and successfull certification is what qualifies you to be recognized as APN. But, you have many RNs who are considering APN and as RNs are restructuring their minds to apply the knowledge gained as RN to their futures as APNs. And, I speak as an Educator as well as an APN.

There are a number of assumptions here that may or may not be true about how useful nursing experience is as an NP.

If you are referring to my comments, no, I do not assume. My observations are from personal experience over many years.

This assumes that an NP that is an experienced nurse would be able to see patients faster than an NP that is an inexperienced nurse.

I highly doubt that previous experience has anything to do with the speed with which the NP sees patients.

But can you assume all nurses have equal exposure to scenarios and situations just because they have experience.

I've tried to address this statement and really not sure what you are driving at here.

Finally a question to Siri - as someone who is looking at a Hospital job. My understanding is that since hospitals have relatively deep pockets that they have assets to use if an award goes over the amount of insurance they carry (alleviating the need for an NP or PA to pay out of pocket). In private practice it is common for the employer to pay for malpractice. Is th insurance. Is this common in institutional settings.

And, as I have pointed out with a previous question/statement regarding liability issues, this question needs to be addressed in another thread for it is off-topic from the OPs original intent: Becoming an NP with little to no nursing experience??

Editorial Team / Admin · Dec 17, 2006

Many have asked me over the past few months about my professional background. When they hear I'm a new grad APN they always ask what else I've done. When I tell them that I have 10 years experience in our local level one trauma center and another year in the ICU, they all relax and know they are in experienced hands.

Excellent comment, traumaRUs.

core0 · Dec 17, 2006

Quote:
But can you assume all nurses have equal exposure to scenarios and situations just because they have experience.
I've tried to address this statement and really not sure what you are driving at here.

OK lets look at three scenarios. One is a nurse that has 4 years med-surg experience, one is a nurse that has 4 years ICU experience and one is a nurse that has 4 years of inpatient psych experience. They all have four years of nursing. Are they all equal? Do they all have the same exposure to disease conditions and illness? This is my point here. The assumption seems to be that all nursing experience is equally valuable. I would assert that it is not just the type and quality of experience but the way the nurse processes that experience that matters.

David Carpenter, PA-C

Editorial Team / Admin · Dec 17, 2006

OK lets look at three scenarios. One is a nurse that has 4 years med-surg experience, one is a nurse that has 4 years ICU experience and one is a nurse that has 4 years of inpatient psych experience. They all have four years of nursing. Are they all equal? Do they all have the same exposure to disease conditions and illness? David Carpenter, PA-C

No, they do not have equal exposure to disease conditions/illnesses. That's impossible and to think this is inaccurate.

The assumption seems to be that all nursing experience is equally valuable

Again, no assumptions. An accurate statement, however.

YES, all experience has a hand in preparing the RN for the role of APN. All experience opens a door to how disease entities are handled; how the HCP arrives at said dx; why and how dx studies are performed; how to interpret said dx studies and apply to the disease process; how/why/when additional consult/referral is necessary as it applies to said disease process; all seen day in and day out as an RN. This helps shape one's own abilities to process information and apply to one's future as an APN.

bluesky, BSN, RN · Dec 17, 2006

OK lets look at three scenarios. One is a nurse that has 4 years med-surg experience, one is a nurse that has 4 years ICU experience and one is a nurse that has 4 years of inpatient psych experience. They all have four years of nursing. Are they all equal? Do they all have the same exposure to disease conditions and illness? This is my point here. The assumption seems to be that all nursing experience is equally valuable. I would assert that it is not just the type and quality of experience but the way the nurse processes that experience that matters.
David Carpenter, PA-C

Complete red herring. 99.9 % of nurses who pursue NP degrees pursue it in their own specialty.

core0 · Dec 18, 2006

Complete red herring. 99.9 % of nurses who pursue NP degrees pursue it in their own specialty.

Do you actually have any figures on this. The quote on the Psych nurse was from experience with an NP in an FNP program. I have seen plently of ICU nurses in FNP programs also. What is "their specialty" from a nursing perspective? What "specialty" does Med-surg go into?

David Carpenter, PA-C