BA to MSN?

[skijunkie]

Hi everyone. Here's a question I hope you can answer: Must a person with a bachelor's degree in something other than nursing complete a BSN before moving onto an MSN? Just curious!

[AnneS]

This thread addresses some of the questions I have had as well. As a recent ADN graduate from a community college, I also hold a BS degree (in business administration). When looking for many RN jobs, I see they require a BSN. I would not think there is much difference between a bachelors degree in one field, with an Associate degree in nursing, and a BSN, so why do they only want BSN? Is it true they do not see the obvious benefit of bacheolors degree in a non nusing field? There are very few professions that actually have specific degrees at the undergraduate level, so why do hospitals stress the necessity of having a BSN? Even medical students major in many fields before getting into med school. It makes for a more rounded person in my opinion.

Anyways just venting. I am deeply discouraged that despite all my hard work and experience, I am not considered as qualified as a BSN.

[laurag_dc]

There are quite a few programs out there now, generally referred to as "direct entry" programs, that allow (non-nurse) people with baccalaureate degrees in something other than nursing (even entirely unrelated to healthcare) to get an MSN in nursing. The programs include a year or more of "general" nursing, combined with the MSN program; some actually award a BSN degree along with the MSN, some don't (my grad school had a direct entry program in which the students took one (v. intense) year of general nursing and then took the two-year MSN program with the rest of us (traditional students) -- they finished with the same MSN that we did, but they did not also get a BSN in the process -- but, once you have an MSN, a BSN doesn't really matter). Of course, you still have to pass the NCLEX-RN, the licensure exam for RNs, and be licensed as an RN to be able to practice, regardless of your degree.

There are many, many options these days in nursing education; I'm sure that, if you look around, you will be able to find a program to meet your needs.

I'm in the same boat - I have a BS and MS in Computer Science but I'm looking for my 2nd career. I've looked at the direct combined BSN/MSN programs in my area - that's a lot of time and money (in my local area, my only options are expensive private Unis). Right now I think I'm going for a RN through my local community college. The state of Virginia has nice programs to fund MSNs but you need at least a years experience. I figure I'll work for a year or two then see if NP is really what I want.

[mmm333, LVN]

Wow. With backgrounds in business and CS it's pretty obvious that you guys might be future managers, researchers, or informatics people (after doing your hard time to transition from new grad to novice and expert and hopefully remembering your old skills). And any hiring manager looking at your credentials should come to the conclusion that you have obtained critical thinking skills, the ability to write and communicate, and the ability to learn and grasp new things similar to the way a BSN does. If you went to a well-ranked school like Berkeley, Rutgers, etc. and/or chose a difficult major, it should be held up and compared with the BSN that is applying for the same position. Your work experience should come into play as well. In this crazy economy there are geologists, bank managers and investment bankers going into nursing. Their experience is hard to dismiss when the fresh young BSN with no work experience is their competition. The BSN is only one factor.

I think that the BSN industry (as a monolithic phenomenon, not as an intentional conspiracy) takes advantage of second-degree earners and makes them redo too much in order to learn about community/public health, leadership/management, and research. The BARN can get all this from a 4-9 unit MSN bridge program in one or two part-time semesters of graduate study. But to get a BSN they need to go to school full time for a year or more. Considering the puny pay difference, it is simply not worth it in most cases.

One question I would like to see answered for you and the rest of us is this: What is the basis for magnet status? Does a BA or BS in some other discipline allow the hospital to contribute the holder to their list of "baccalaurette-prepared" staff members? I think it might. If you readers know more about the what and why of magnet status, maybe you can answer this for us. We should all know this because if so then it makes our degree more of a selling point during a job interview. An unsophisticated way to put it is "you get to add me to your magnet list without paying me anything extra since its not a BSN", though I would pitch it differently.

We have to insist that our significant accomplishments be valued- but we've also got to remember that a BA in Literature + an ADN does not equate to a BSN. Still, we should not let anyone compare an ADN to an LVN as I've seen a few people do online. Much respect to the BSN grads out there but some people don't appreciate the fact that there are some very good ADN programs out there that manage to teach much of the same content and have better NCLEX pass rates than some of the BSN programs. For me it was a simple choice between the expensive private A-BSN program and nearly free ADN program I got accepted to. Having a BA degree and knowing that I can go the RN>MSN route, I chose the ADN program.

There is alot of new research that basically says that the more education, the lower morbidity- however it was done by a school of nursing who could stand to gain alot if the local ADN programs that compete with it were taken out of the picture. I'll just say that whenever the outcome of research is convenient toward the interests of the researchers, I am circumspect.

There is definitely pressure out there to make BSN or MSN the standard entry platform, and I basically agree with that. Imagine having nurse managers with a solid business education behind them and their MSN focused on taking good care of nurses in addition to the finances. Imagine nurses coming into nursing with foreign language skills, psychology BAs, as paralegals or social workers, not to mention with strong computer, public speaking, teaching, or research skills, etc. They could contribute alot.

I support the BSN as entry but it runs smack into a wall of reality- given the general shortage and especially the rural shortages. "They" are going to need to add another layer to the nursing hierarchy if they want this stuff to happen- and I'm not sure dividing up the profession into a caste system is such a good thing either- it sounds like a very self-defeating move.

Anne you make a great point about interdisciplinary contributions to nursing. Nursing is striving to be considered a "profession" but sometimes wears blinders and insulates itself from the broader context which other professions are all exposed to and tend to appreciate more. I would say that one of the definitions of "profession" might be intellectual curiosity and a commitment to lifelong learning. MBAs with broad perspective and vision ("visionaries") are cherished. Lawyers with an understanding of psychology, history, and philosophy (which provide understanding of the context, underpinnings, and aims of the law) and are grounded in other sectors (such as healthcare!) are highly cherished.

If nursing could stretch just little bit further in this area it might advance itself as a profession. Making the post-bac certificate, BSN, or MSN the entry point to practice might force all nurses to pick up more peripheral skill sets on their way to becoming a nurse, enriching the profession itself and ensuring that all nurses are more well-rounded and on par with their colleagues.

On the other hand ADN programs bring in diversity of all types, attract younger people and people from other professions (who bring in talent and peripheral skills too), are right out there in the communities, and have many validating reasons for being there other than "filling the gap". If BSN becomes the gold standard, I would hope to see are universities establish joint programs awarding BSNs on community college campuses (Like Canada College/SFSU in the SF Bay Area). ADN graduates have earned WAY more than simply an A.A./A.S. degree- considering the additional science and nursing work they must do beyond their breadth requirements. It really is less a 2-year degree and more like a "3-year degree". Many top-notch people have opted for ADN programs and become great nurses dedicated to lifelong learning, and most seem like they are planning to get their BSN or MSN after transitioning into the profession.

Anyway, good luck to you guys and please post any thoughts or information you find right here in this thread so we BA>RNs (and BS>RNs) can figure out what to do with ourselves!

[peaceofmind8]

Wow, Maximillian333, thank you for your insight! I too am a BARN, accepted to a very expensive private MSN program as well as the CCSF ADN program. Both programs are well-reputed but carry obvious differences. Your argument for the ADN is compelling, particularly because like most new RN's, my weakness in in the clinical arena I have critical thinking skills, second language skills, etc. ... Do you have any suggestions about BARN to MSN programs that don't require too much of a bridge? It's a very hard decision ...

[shaas, ASN, RN]

An enthusiastic 'hello' to all!

I am in a similar quandary and having to make the 'right' decision is weighing really heavily on my mind. I am even losing sleep over it, at times. So, after much reading and perusing this forum, I decided to join for your insights. By the way, I share the same sentiment on the necessity of the nursing profession as a whole to be more validating and valuing of other BA's and BS's who want to join forces. Many of us can bring to the table our respectively unique experiences and, sometiems, more rigorous academic contributions that nursing as an expanding profession strives to unilaterally achieve.

I, too, have a BA (in Sociology) and most all of the pre-pharmacy requisites, some of which coincide with that of Nursing, luckily. After a recent layoff from a municipality as an analyst, I gave a serious thought to my career change and decided that nursing seems to fit me the best; a rocky marriage of science and human services.

Recently, I've applied to a local ADN program in September 2011, and, after the preliminary reviewing of applications, I was invited to take the TEAS to be considered for the Spring 2011 entry. A definite admission letter would arrive after their compiling all applicants' TEAS scores and re-ranking the applicants. I am crossing my fingers...

Here is my problem. I am also giving another school, CSU Fullerton, a serious consideration for their EL-MSN program (I live in So. CA). I plan to apply next spring for their fall-entry, 2011. I've spent recent nights contemplating which choice would be the most cost-effective and time-saving as I am 37. So far, it has been a doozy to make a decision that meets both. The ADN program counselor told me that my previous BA would prove beneficial, with no specifics mentioned. I'm thinking that the real test would be when I am submitting resumes for jobs after getting my RN.

So, here is my internal dialogue, now aloud: 1) an ADN program, for me, offers the most reasonable cost for getting a RN licensure; whereas 2) EL-MSN offers RN and MSN at one sitting, barring failure from my end; and the stickler is 3) having to pay arm and a leg for the RN-portion during EL-MSN sort of kills me. I am still paying for my undegrad. tuition as we speak. Accruing more debt, in this economy, seems rather foolish. Yet, the prospect/lure of acquiring a MSN (a logical progression from a Baccalaureate to a Master's degree, in my fuzzy mind) is so wonderful.

I am almost sold on BA - RN - MSN route, but could someone who have gone through either routes share with me their honest thoughts on this?

I would greatly appreciate any insight. I know that the decision is ultimately my responsibility. But, I'd like to weigh as many variables, and others' favorable outcomes, as I can.

Thank you all in advance! :lvan:

Wishing you a happy, warm holiday season,

Shaas

[mmm333, LVN]

Shaas,

I can only offer my advice as an ADN grad, which depends on the amount of security and money you have behind you.

Nursing education is an investment that may or may not pay off, at least in the short term. Only a small handful of new grads have gotten hired this year, and most of these were previously employed in healthcare organizations before attending school, further some of those "knew" to some extent that they might have a good shot at a position where they had been working.

When times are as tough as they are now, it is better to have "more" in the form of a BSN (or above). Frankly having the MSN won't matter much more than having a BSN in the beginning, if at all. It will, however, give you greater advantage as a bargaining chip than the ADN degree. When the market is competitive, employers can demand more, and some do demand BSN or above from applicants as a minimum requirement. This depends on your region/state to some extent also.

You are probably well aware of all this by now, as well as the costs and levels of education.

The ADN will probably be in a tighter local area and may be more convenient. It is definitely going to be cheaper as you know. Some ADNs are madhouses and weed-out factories, barely creaking along on their broken budgets. Others are very well run and enjoy wonderful reputations in their communities. Go there and talk to the students and check some of the rating websites to find out the strengths of the academic staff in that department. Any ADN is going to be challenging even for people with previous academic experience at prestigious universities. The difference is sometimes that you are on your own, lectures are basically overviews that help you focus your reading, and if you participate in lecture but don't read consistently, you can expect a C- or lower (failing). There is no hand holding in most ADNs, something some employers actually know and admire. Another aspect is skills. Not to propagandize on behalf of my ADN program, but I noticed that all of the extra skills lab time we acquired put us way ahead on skills when I ran into 2nd year students from local BSN programs who could not catheterize, start IVs, set up an ECG, or perform many other skills smoothly, comfortably, and safely. Our students tended to roll up their sleeves and knock these tasks out without a second thought. ADNs lend some focus to skills so it's not really surprising, nor does it reflect badly on those students.

On the other hand, the MSN is probably going to take an extra year. You might enjoy better instruction and intellectual challenge. I've heard of some of these programs being disorganized and difficult to navigate but most are truly set up and run like graduate schools. I would never apply to one unless I'd done some in-person walking, stalking, and talking.

In either case, there is a bit of a gamble as far as whether there will be jobs when you graduate. 2009 was a bad year to graduate, 2010 was worse, and 2011 isn't looking that great since the economy isn't out of the woods yet. The point here is not to scare you, but to implore you to make your investment based on your ability to absorb the "worst case scenario" of graduating and not having a job for 1-2 years, and then trying to get hired with your education 2 years behind you. In this economy I would recommend the ADN to anyone of finite means. I went bankrupt for my ADN and it hasn't paid off, but thank God I don't have 30k-60k in loans to pay off. I had been accepted to a private BSN program that was very expensive and choosing the ADN and turning down the BSN was in retrospect the best financial move I've ever made considering the present circumstances. I went back to work in my field, and may never become an RN just because of the economy, finances, and bad timing. If you are completely stable financially go for the MSN, if not I would recommend the risk vs. reward ratio inherent in the ADN and a worst case scenario of ending up broke and bruised but not deeply indebted.

You are an exquisite writer, by the way. I hope you are rich (or even filthy rich!) and can afford to throw caution aside and jump into an MSN program where you can really use your research and writing skills fully.

[mmm333, LVN]

@AnneS ... The skills you can deliver based on your business education / BS will speak for themselves on the floor and in class... but essentially your BS degree is totally inapplicable to the nursing world in the short-term especially if you attend an ASN program.

1) Be prepared not to enjoy any more respect than any other nursing student in your program, be it ASN, BSN, or MSN based on your having a degree. Many people arrive at the nursing school door with a BA. Some regard a BA as a degree people get when they don't know what they want to do- and in many cases, that is correct. You got a business degree which USED to mean a job, but not really anymore. I certainly empathize with you there- that is a difficult degree. Also be prepared to encounter jealousy from some, or the tendency of some to continually try to remind you that you aren't so smart. You will be best off if you see it all as a fresh start. If you didn't want a fresh start, you would have stayed in the business world, right? No, your hard work on that degree did not end in a stable career. So do your grieving now, and then move on. I'm saying this to save you trouble and angst later. You may thank me later.

2) Your BS will allow you to apply to some "2nd degree programs" which are mostly A-BSNs (Accelerated BSN) or E-MSN (Entry to nursing MSNs). This is where you might reap the advantages of having a BS or BA.

3) Far down the line, if you apply to be on a staff committee related to hospital finance, management, HR, or business, or a charge nurse or nurse manager position, it will definitely put you in the arena and make you stand out. Take solace in this- your degree will have long-term value if not short-term payoff. The skills and knowledge you have will definitely help you personally, but don't expect much recognition in this field based on that degree until after you've proven yourself as a novice nurse.

[mmm333, LVN]

BTW my old buddy is doing the RN>BSN at CSU Fullerton online and loves it, having dropped out of a previous online program through another school.

[shaas, ASN, RN]

Thank you very much for your thoughtful insight on program choices, mmm333.

I think that the decision is swaying closer to doing ADN and then MSN. It seems the most reasonable, and financially feasible, to me. I'm neither rich nor spontaneous, so, I will have to stick with what I can handle with my conscience. I am so glad that there are RN - MSN pathways. Although it seems time-consuming, it will be worthwhile, or so I hope.

Also, I want to sincerely thank you for your encouragement and your compliment on my writing. I hope to improve it further and, as you've said, put to good use to possibly benefit others down the line. A good research paper that reads like a riveting article would be a great aim.

I was saddened to read that you are not practicing and that ADN incurred some financial damages for you. Surely, an expensive, private BSN would drive both of us into a deeper financial abyss, if you ask me. It would be my small wish that, some day, when you are impelled to practice nursing as a vocation/profession, that you would, without hesitation, come back. However, I also know that being content with one's choices is paramount in personal happiness.

Again, thank you for your wise words! I wish you a warm holiday season! :)

Best regards,

Shaas

[mmm333, LVN]

Don't overlook "NCLEX pass rates" for each school either. This is the #1 criteria in my opinion. Don't apply to any program with a low or unpublished pass rate without visiting the school and asking them why those numbers are low.

Also do not give short shrift to the possibility that ADNs could be phased out in the future, that some organizations may only interview BSNs or above, and that some organizations will require you to get your BSN/MSN or be working on it within X years. One or all of these scenarios are likely at some point.

Consider the available means, the risks involved, and the benefits, make your choice, and don't look back.

[Watson2626]

Look into Accelerated BSN program or Direct Entry MSN program

[Malefocker, BSN, RN]

Shaas

Have you checked out Cal State Long Beach I know they have a direct entry msn... which you can get your BSN on the way...