Artificial feeding-Terri Schiavo

BRANDY LPN · Mar 21, 2005

Brandy, thank you very much for bringing up what is one of the obvious issues in this case for nurses.
Why no nursing intervention?
Reading between the lines, I see several things going on here:
1. Michael Schiavo sounds like an intimidating person, and it sounds as though the staff was scared of crossing him. Those who chose to cross him were either fired, or left. I suspect that the intimidation factor went all the way up in the care facility where Terry Schiavo was treated. I say this because one nurse's affidavit spoke of records being deleted and changed when her nurse spoke of Terry having favorable responses to treatment or stimuli.
2. Apart from the care facility staff, it sounds as though Michael Schiavo doc-shopped to find physicians who would basically take his orders as far as Ms. Schiavo's "care."
3. Michael Schiavo has manipulated the media in this situation, portraying himself as the poor, aggrieved husband who is only seeking to carry out his wife's wishes, and the media has been slow to point out the many, documented evidences of abuse on Michael Schiavo's part.
4. There are -- sad to say -- a group of nurses who either don't believe they have professional responsibility in such situations, or are afraid to go out on a limb in providing care for a patient. ROM, oral care, and many other such procedures are not extraordinary care, but are routine, ordinary, nursing-101 responsibilities.
Jim Huffman, RN

I still don't "get it", Please if there is ONE nurse on this board who disagrees please post why. If someone deleted my notes I would call the BON, the ombudsman, anyone and everyone I could think of, if someone deleted my notes you would hear the ruckus I would create for MILES. If I were fired I would contact my labor board, again my BON, not to mention adult protective services. This goes much deeper than this women being denied food and water she has been denied BASIC care. If that were my name on the chart the BON would allready have my license so why have they kept their nose out of this widely publisized case? Why has the BON not investigated?

Penguinurse · Mar 21, 2005

I've read lots and lots of posts from people who suspect Mr. Schiavo of really horrible things - does anyone have any documented proof of any abuses, past or present? "I suspect" or "I heard" or "it seems like" are not enough when making serious accusations. And despite any real or perceived personality "flaws," he's not a criminal unless tried and convicted.

Back to the basics - no matter what you think about the spouse or parents - the real issues as I see them are:

1. The right to die in the current age of life-prolonging technology, and

2. Who makes decisions for you when you can't make them for yourself? Your spouse? Parents? CONGRESS?? :uhoh21:

LydiaNN · Mar 21, 2005

Congress is not making a decision as to whether Terri Schiavo lives or dies. They are making the decision to ask a federal court to review the case. We do this in death penalty cases, routinely. Convicted murderers have the right to petition pretty much every court in their own state and at the federal level. Why is it so horrible to ask the courts to intervene in this case? Terri's death will be just as final.

Danianne · Mar 21, 2005

Personally and again I say personally. I currently work in long term care and I have worked with adults and children with varoius disorders that make them unable to convey their personal feelings. For example I work with a man who has MS and he is a quad basically dead from the neck down. He got pnumonia this winter and almost died they wanted to put a trach in and he said no. he said that he would rather die than live as a quad for the next 20 years, BUT when it came down to the end of the line for him he was begging with his last few breaths to have the trach done. The nurse called 911 and they sent him to the hospital. where they intubated him etc and gave him IV antibiotics.... he survived and came back to his home for the last 15 years. he told me that although he was living trapped in a non functioning body when it came to the end of the line he said he would rather fight and live to the very last minute. So I cannot help but to wonder what each of us will feel when it comes down to our last breaths and cannot tell some one that we changed our minds about our decision that we made when the situation at hand was "what if".

Penguinurse · Mar 21, 2005

Congress is not making a decision as to whether Terri Schiavo lives or dies. They are making the decision to ask a federal court to review the case. We do this in death penalty cases, routinely. Convicted murderers have the right to petition pretty much every court in their own state and at the federal level. Why is it so horrible to ask the courts to intervene in this case? Terri's death will be just as final.

Mercyteapot - that reference to Congress was simply to point out that we, as Americans, are woefully underprepared to think about (much less plan for) our eventually deaths. Hopefully this whole mess will accomplish at least one good thing, and that's to make folks more aware of the need to make their wishes known before something incapacitating happens to them.

James Huffman · Mar 21, 2005

I've read lots and lots of posts from people who suspect Mr. Schiavo of really horrible things - does anyone have any documented proof of any abuses, past or present? "I suspect" or "I heard" or "it seems like" are not enough when making serious accusations. And despite any real or perceived personality "flaws," he's not a criminal unless tried and convicted.

1. To repeat my earlier post:

"Michael Baden, top forensic pathologist in country and interviewed on Fox News National Television broadcast October 25, 2003 on Terri's bone scan and injuries states that:

a) Terri's injuries are not consistent with a heart attack; no cardiac evidence to support it

b) Extremely rare for potassium imbalance on woman her age and in her good health

c) Injuries are consistent with severe trauma possibly caused by a beating

d) The injuries in medical records warrant an immediate investigation"

2. If Ms. Schiavo's injuries indicate a possibilty of abuse on the part of Michael Schiavo, then let's investigate. And if -- as you said earlier, "he's not a criminal unless tried and convicted," then if there's enough evidence to warrant it, I hope the local DA has the guts to indict him. Sorry, but I have patience with a man who abuses his wife. If that's what went on here, it's high time that he be made to answer for his behavior.

Jim Huffman, RN

tvccrn, ASN, RN · Mar 21, 2005

1. To repeat my earlier post:
"Michael Baden, top forensic pathologist in country and interviewed on Fox News National Television broadcast October 25, 2003 on Terri's bone scan and injuries states that:
a) Terri's injuries are not consistent with a heart attack; no cardiac evidence to support it
b) Extremely rare for potassium imbalance on woman her age and in her good health
c) Injuries are consistent with severe trauma possibly caused by a beating
d) The injuries in medical records warrant an immediate investigation"
2. If Ms. Schiavo's injuries indicate a possibilty of abuse on the part of Michael Schiavo, then let's investigate. And if -- as you said earlier, "he's not a criminal unless tried and convicted," then if there's enough evidence to warrant it, I hope the local DA has the guts to indict him. Sorry, but I have patience with a man who abuses his wife. If that's what went on here, it's high time that he be made to answer for his behavior.
Jim Huffman, RN

The potassium imbalance was caused by an eating disorder. That is what lead to the cardiac arrest, not blocked arteries. A bone scan performed many years after the fact can only attest to the presence of injuries and possible causes. It can even give an estimation of the age of the injuries, but considering the potassium imbalance that is said to cause the initial arrest who knows what condition her bones are in. I don't know of too many dependant patient in LTC that don't have some sort of accidental injuries related to the deterioration of muscle mass to protect bones that are delicate due to inactivity.

IF he did abuse his wife and it can be proven then I also will say he needs to be punished, but I feel ALL things should be considered.

James Huffman · Mar 21, 2005

The potassium imbalance was caused by an eating disorder. That is what lead to the cardiac arrest, not blocked arteries. A bone scan performed many years after the fact can only attest to the presence of injuries and possible causes. It can even give an estimation of the age of the injuries, but considering the potassium imbalance that is said to cause the initial arrest who knows what condition her bones are in. I don't know of too many dependant patient in LTC that don't have some sort of accidental injuries related to the deterioration of muscle mass to protect bones that are delicate due to inactivity.
IF he did abuse his wife and it can be proven then I also will say he needs to be punished, but I feel ALL things should be considered.

Regarding the allegations of an eating disorder:

"Contrary to the account of writer Chachere, there was never a determination by any court nor the Florida Department of Health that Terri Schiavo ever suffered from any eating disorder, bulimia, anorexia or compulsive behavior that would lead to a heart failure at the age of 26.

Indeed, Florida's Department of Health had completely and absolutely cleared Terri's general practitioner of any negligence or wrong-doing in her case. This was after the physician had been accused by Terri's husband of ignoring evidence of an eating disorder.

Additionally, at the time of her mysterious medical episode, Terri Schiavo stood 5'3" and weighed somewhere between 115 and 118 pounds - a slim, but normal stature and weight.

Associated Press writer, Vickie Chachere cites not ONE medical document that would affirm her careless contention that Terri Schiavo was an irresponsible dieter or a compulsive victim of an eating disorder. The Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation asks Ms. Chachere to readily produce the facts upon which she penned such assertions.

The parents and siblings have repeatedly offered to media and press a copy of a bone scan conducted on Terri Schiavo just one year after her incident that reveals multiple sites of trauma and broken bones throughout Terri's body. Neither the law enforcement agencies nor the media or press have made any effort to investigate why Terri Schiavo's body was seemingly broken by battery.

Instead, they perpetuate the unsubstantiated claims that Terri Schiavo suffered from an eating disorder that rendered her healthy, 26 year-old heart incapable of carrying on."

[end of quote]

Jim Huffman,RN

lpn3324 · Mar 21, 2005

Regarding the allegations of an eating disorder:
"Contrary to the account of writer Chachere, there was never a determination by any court nor the Florida Department of Health that Terri Schiavo ever suffered from any eating disorder, bulimia, anorexia or compulsive behavior that would lead to a heart failure at the age of 26.
Indeed, Florida's Department of Health had completely and absolutely cleared Terri's general practitioner of any negligence or wrong-doing in her case. This was after the physician had been accused by Terri's husband of ignoring evidence of an eating disorder.
Additionally, at the time of her mysterious medical episode, Terri Schiavo stood 5'3" and weighed somewhere between 115 and 118 pounds - a slim, but normal stature and weight.
Associated Press writer, Vickie Chachere cites not ONE medical document that would affirm her careless contention that Terri Schiavo was an irresponsible dieter or a compulsive victim of an eating disorder. The Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation asks Ms. Chachere to readily produce the facts upon which she penned such assertions.
The parents and siblings have repeatedly offered to media and press a copy of a bone scan conducted on Terri Schiavo just one year after her incident that reveals multiple sites of trauma and broken bones throughout Terri's body. Neither the law enforcement agencies nor the media or press have made any effort to investigate why Terri Schiavo's body was seemingly broken by battery.
Instead, they perpetuate the unsubstantiated claims that Terri Schiavo suffered from an eating disorder that rendered her healthy, 26 year-old heart incapable of carrying on."
[end of quote]
Jim Huffman,RN

How Terri got to this point is not as much of a problem to me as the fact that the government is now intervening.Is the next stepoing to be court ordered chemo?

James Huffman · Mar 21, 2005

How Terri got to this point is not as much of a problem to me as the fact that the government is now intervening.

But how Ms. Schiavo got to the point has always been a question for the government, as it would be for anyone who has been abused. If she has been abused by Michael Schiavo, then he should stand trial for that, and a trial is, obviously, something the government has to do.

What's more, if his abuse is what initially brought her to this point, then he should have absolutely no say in the direction her care goes. If he is responsible in any way for her condition, he has forfeited all rights to have a say in her care.

Jim Huffman, RN

INtoFL_RN · Mar 21, 2005

How Terri got to this point is not as much of a problem to me as the fact that the government is now intervening.Is the next stepoing to be court ordered chemo?

Your argument may be a bit overboard. This is not a case where a woman is able to speak for herself and can tell her doctors what she wants/does not want. This is a case in which a woman left no written instructions as to her wishes, and it is up to other people to decipher what she would have wanted. The government is not trying to tell her what to do, they are attempting to grant her the same rights of due process that is also given to death row inmates. We should be applauding Congress for standing up for her civil rights, not bashing them for getting involved. They are involved because of her family. If you want to point the finger at someone, look at her family who has taken their "personal business" to the courts and the media for so many years. If ANYTHING, Judge Greer of Florida should be accused of telling the family what to do.

Kyriaka · Mar 21, 2005

I tell you what I am deeply confused about. Michael Shiavo is the "witness" that she said she did not want such and such. I find that very interesting.

When I did a living will I had to have 2 witnesses to my decision. NEITHER of these individuals could be mentioned as beneficiaries at all in my estate.

For those of you who do have living wills, what about you?? Could your witness(s) be someone in your family?