Are you willing to pay more taxes to ensure health coverage for all?

allnurses Guide · Jun 27, 2007

Folks posted around a dozen more times since I took a break from this thread three days ago.
Telling me to "give it up now" is rather insulting. A little redirection of your exhortation may be in order.

I noticed you were gone and have been impatiently waiting for you to come back . . . .

Thanks! Nice to "see" you.

steph

pickledpepperRN · Jun 27, 2007

I tried a billion dollar a year income and could not find a tax rate of 47%.

I posted a question that was not answered.

Not saying it is false, just that maybe I am not intelligent enough to figure out that link.

I have never paid taxes in Canada.

headsup · Jun 27, 2007

It has already been explained in several different ways that Darren is using the marginal tax rate (the amount of tax you have to pay on anything over $118,000 in Canada, $311,000 in the US) over the entire income.

Further, those who make over the $311,000 in the US pay the lowest marginal tax rates in the world.

So by using your example, Darren, you state that you pay marginal tax rates. So you pay 35% on your entire income?? Of course not. Neither do Canadians.

Jolie, BSN · Jun 27, 2007

Further, those who make over the $311,000 in the US pay the lowest marginal tax rates in the world.

More apples and oranges. Using your statistics, those who make over $311,000 pay the lowest marginal tax rates in the world. Maybe so, but they also pay the HIGHEST marginal rates in the US, effectively subsidizing the millions of low-income workers who pay no federal tax at all.

If you are trying to make the point that high-income American taxpayers are not pulling their weight, you must compare them to their fellow American taxpayers, not the world at large, especially since the average American taxpayer does NOT receive the slew of taxpayer funded benefits that those in other nations do (healthcare, vacation pay, extended, fully-paid maternity leave, etc.)

cardiacRN2006, ADN, RN · Jun 27, 2007

And contrary to popular belief... (I am in Canada right now - until I go to San Diego in the fall for 6 weeks to visit family/work) I can see my family doctor today if I felt I needed to. And if I really was urgent but did not want to bother with hospital ER and my doctor was closed, there are a plethoria of walk-in clinics right there, ready to serve me....all for free.
For specialists there might be a few weeks wait time, unless I was critical, then I get in right away (like my employee with the brain tumour).
.

Lol, my friend, who I converse with daily lives in Canada. She needs surgery, and has been waiting for the date. She told me today that she called to see when it was scheduled, and she was told she was on a 'wait-list' to be called back with the surgery date.

A wait list to wait for a call! For a much needed surgery. She's been waiting for over a month for the call, and found out that her surgery is scheduled for mid October.

Until then, she will suffer, I guess.

headsup · Jun 27, 2007

Lol, my friend, who I converse with daily lives in Canada. She needs surgery, and has been waiting for the date. She told me today that she called to see when it was scheduled, and she was told she was on a 'wait-list' to be called back with the surgery date.
A wait list to wait for a call! For a much needed surgery. She's been waiting for over a month for the call, and found out that her surgery is scheduled for mid October.
Until then, she will suffer, I guess.

Where is she and what surgery does she need? For an elective surgery there can indeed be a wait. Especially if it is for knee or hip replacement.

DarrenWright · Jun 28, 2007

So by using your example, Darren, you state that you pay marginal tax rates. So you pay 35% on your entire income?? Of course not. Neither do Canadians.

No no no...I didn't say that.

But as it stands now, the absolute highest I could ever pay on my income is 35%...at least federally (although I'm certain the current majority is licking their chops over the day when the current cuts expire). The highest I would pay on state (comparative to provincial), is about 9.9%. If I took the same income it would take to hit these highest possible marginal tax rates in the US , I would far and exceed those rates in places like BC.

As it stands now, my income last year put me in a tax bracket where my highest marginal rate was 28%, but the gov't has neat little places where I can put money before they see it, and as a reward for putting a little of my own cash into retirement, they don't look at it as taxable income, lowering my highest possible marginal rate to 25%, and making my average tax rate 19%.

Then my state tax was flat at 3%, for an average tax of 22%. My same income in BC would've been taxed at an average 34%, with a high margin of 44%.

I know, I'm misinterpreting the data. But then, somehow I was able to crunch the numbers to bring myself from the cycle of average American debt to the point of a debt-free net worth of roughly three times the national average...on an RN's wage.

headsup · Jun 28, 2007

No no no...I didn't say that.
But as it stands now, the absolute highest I could ever pay on my income is 35%...at least federally (although I'm certain the current majority is licking their chops over the day when the current cuts expire). The highest I would pay on state (comparative to provincial), is about 9.9%. If I took the same income it would take to hit these highest possible marginal tax rates in the US , I would far and exceed those rates in places like BC.
As it stands now, my income last year put me in a tax bracket where my highest marginal rate was 28%, but the gov't has neat little places where I can put money before they see it, and as a reward for putting a little of my own cash into retirement, they don't look at it as taxable income, lowering my highest possible marginal rate to 25%, and making my average tax rate 19%.
Then my state tax was flat at 3%, for an average tax of 22%. My same income in BC would've been taxed at an average 34%, with a high margin of 44%.
I know, I'm misinterpreting the data. But then, somehow I was able to crunch the numbers to bring myself from the cycle of average American debt to the point of a debt-free net worth of roughly three times the national average...on an RN's wage.

You know. I think it is great that you love your system. I think it is great that you love your country...so do I, as I am American as well.

However.

I do not understand why you keep fabricating things in order to prove your own points.

Here is a website. http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/individuals/faq/taxrates-e.html

I use it to double check all my employees wages at year end. For a wage of $48,000 the average tax rate is 23% AFTER prov and fed. (In BC. It is considerably lower in Alberta)

For a wage of $130,000 the tax rate is 30.7% after everything.

Perhaps you can try to plug in numbers.

Then you take the final amount of tax owing and divide it by the total income at the end.

That will give you the percentage.

There is no dispute that Canadians pay higher taxes. But not much higher. And the numbers you are throwing out there are completely ridiculous.

I don't know why you are being so thick about this, but really, do the math.

It is ok to say that you love what your country is doing and the way it is going. Really.

You do not have to disparage other countries to support your own opinions. :nono:

HM2VikingRN, RN · Jun 28, 2007

More apples and oranges. Using your statistics, those who make over $311,000 pay the lowest marginal tax rates in the world. Maybe so, but they also pay the HIGHEST marginal rates in the US, effectively subsidizing the millions of low-income workers who pay no federal tax at all.
If you are trying to make the point that high-income American taxpayers are not pulling their weight, you must compare them to their fellow American taxpayers, not the world at large, especially since the average American taxpayer does NOT receive the slew of taxpayer funded benefits that those in other nations do (healthcare, vacation pay, extended, fully-paid maternity leave, etc.)

Benefits which our country can certainly afford to grant each other....

Warren Buffet has a rather famous comment to the effect that he thinks it is wrong that his secretary pays a higher marginal tax rate than he does....

Think of it this way:

A low income worker pays a sales tax on essentially everything he/she buys at a store. SS/Medicare tax is deducted from the first dollar earned. while a high income earner (For this discussion someone earning over 300,000/year) does not pay social security tax for anything over about 90,000/year and pays a much lower tax on any dividedend or capital gains income. (roughly 15%). People at that level of income tend to receive a much higher percentage of their income from these lower tax venues which does lower their tax rate. Also property tax tends to represent a lower expense percentage of their overall annual income while the middle class and working poor pay more. (In MN the average tax burden for the middle class represents around 12% while the extrememly wealthy pay about 10% on average.)

I just don't buy the "rich are overtaxed" mentality especially when you factor in other sweetheart deals that they receive from government.

DarrenWright · Jun 28, 2007

I don't know why you are being so thick about this, but really, do the math.
It is ok to say that you love what your country is doing and the way it is going. Really.
You do not have to disparage other countries to support your own opinions.

Fine. But I'd like to point out that I have just as much a right to point out the flaws in another countries system as someone like M. Moore, and if you want to make mention about what it's proper to say in open discussion, I'm going to have to start naming Canadian politicians who OPENLY 'disparage' the US health system while trolling for votes.

Here is an extremly timely post in another forum that I visit from an CANADIAN who used to work as an RN in CANADA and now works as am RN in the US and is a MODERATOR for this other healthcare forum I visit. I, BTW, did not participate at all in this discussion in this forum. It's the seventh post down, and starts with "As a displaced Canadian ill comment on the taxes."

Here is the link, but I'll attach the post because I don't know the ettiquette on sharing forum links even among likeminded healthcare forums.

http://www.flightweb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?showtopic=32172

When i lived in Nova Scotia and started as an RN i was making 18$ hour (which was the going rate).
Sales tax : 15%
Gas: 1$/ L (not gallon)
Here is the kicker. On that income i was paying 38% INCOME TAX on top of everything else.
There was no weekend pay differential, there was a 50 cents (yes CENTS) an hour for working nights. "Registry and travel" nurses dont exist, if someone called in sick you worked short. "Techs and support staff" are either non existent or in short supply. Work morale was always horrible because you had no options. Every hospital was the SAME hospital b/c the government ran them all.
Now, come to the US:
my hourly went up 3.50/hr right off. There was a 4$ night shift differential and a 2$ weekend diff.
I was working night and weekends same as in Canada but making 9.50$/hr MORE.
Gas even now is WAY cheaper in the US.
Sales tax is non existent in some states and 7% is considered "high".
My effective income tax on a wage which was much higher was about 20%.
So... lets see. 38% + 15% alone is 53% off the top of my wage.
In the US i paid 7% + 20% = 26%
So, theoretically i could make 26% less in the US as i did in Canada and have the same take home pay. As it turned out i made nearly 50% more + 27% less in taxes for a total increase in wage for the exact same work hours and job of ~70%.
Not to mention that i could got a 10K singon bonus (unheard of in Canada until a few years ago and not even 50% of that anyway). There was alot of support staff and i always had the option to go down the road and make more moeny at the other hospitals that were trying to recruit me. Lets not even talk about the travel jobs and the registry or in-house pool wages.... that would make it look REAL bad. Oh and most 'goods' are cheaper in the US as well.
So, does that 70K sound so good now?
It would be like comparing the FF pay in san diego CA with the FF pay in buckeye AZ and not taking into consideration that a 1000 sq foot apart in SD is 5X that of one in Buckeye AZ (if not more) and wondering why there is such a pay disparity!
There are places in Canada which are better, but overall this is the general picture in any province compared to the USA.
No point in comparing the Canadian and American dollars. Unless you plan to move to the US or Move to Canada with all your money the exchange rate is meaningless. You make Canadian dollars in Canada and buy things in Canadian dollars there so exchange is irrelevant.

headsup · Jun 28, 2007

I see this person does math like you do.

He does not pay 53% of his wage. I have told you ad nauseum how it works.

Here is the wage grid for BC nurses. After 2009 they are expected to renegotiate and brand spanking new nurses are expected to START at $30 per hour.

http://bcnu.org/contracts_services/provincial_contract/pdf/WagesLTC-case-managers-inserted2.2007-date-of.01chgd-to-2008.pdf

Also - here is the wages for 2005 all across Canada for Nurse 1 - that means an entry level nurse right out of college (Canada requires all RNs to have a 4 year BSN).

http://www.arnnl.nf.ca/PDF/Fee%20Increase/Comparison_of_Current_Salaries_and_Licensure_Fees_across_Canada.pdf

Keep in mind that this was 2 years ago, and most unions have negotiated for annual wage increases.

This person must have been working a very long time ago. Very long to make that low of a wage. And then gas would have been much less than $1 per litre. Sounds like someone is simply trying to justify their position by making false claims. That seems to go around quite a bit on this thread...

Home Health Columnist / Guide · Jun 28, 2007

:smiley_ab

May I respectfully suggest that we drop furture discussion of Canada's taxes....websites been posted + caculators available to do the math...

to continue bickering is :deadhorse and counter productive.

TY